It's not a given that Leif was a Christian. That story comes only from "Eirik's Saga", and is widely acknowledged to have been added by monks who wanted to make the hero Leif into a devout Christian. The more reliable "Greenlanders' Saga" doesn't say anything about Leif becoming a Christian. However, it does hint that his brother Thorvald was, since when he was killed in Vinland, his last request was to be buried with crosses at his head and feet. Leif may have become a Christian while in Greenland (since most did), but he didn't lead the evangelizing mission to Greenland, and likely was not one during the time of his voyage to Vinland.
Help with Surviving Vinland Ideas
- Thread starter Agentdark
- Start date
It would be interesting because I assume you would see a Caste system come into place with the Pure Scandinavians forming the Nobility and I dont know what the Mixed Blood Natives or the Pure Natives would be
Stone castles arrived already in 12th/13th century.
They already had them. The Mound Builder culture!
Now, assuming that there is a permanent settlement in Vinland - at least a few hundred settlers.
They have trade goods which the Mississippi Culture would learn to appreciate. Such as iron. Some iron was smelted in Iceland, and with abundant wood in Newfoundland the Vikings would promptly search and find iron ore.
The Viking ships would sail around shores of America and look for Skraelings to trade with.
Up the Saint Lawrence, Viking ships would easily sail to Montreal and Lachine rapids. Going on means portaging.
But the Varyags did not let the rapids of Volkhov stop them. They founded a town at Ladoga, and went on to Dnieper and Volga.
Now, how far south could they go along the Atlantic shore?
In 850-s, the southernmost permanent and safe Viking settlements were in Ireland. Danelaw IIRC was founded a bit later. The Vikings made short winterings at the mouth of Loire, but did not stay permanently.
Now, a Viking fleet did, in 859, sail all the way through Gibraltar and into Mediterranean Sea. Raided for several years into Italy etc. But they met discouragingly strong resistance (most were lost and some returned to report).
The Vikings in Iceland and Greenland did spend some time exploring. Many settlers of Iceland circumnavigated the isle. Ingolfr Arnarson spent 2 years exploring the southwest coast of Iceland. Erik the Red explored Greenland to the far north during his 3 years of outlawry, before settling in Eastern Settlement, so when the settlers came, he pointed them to Western Settlement and hunting grounds far north.
Could a fleet of Vinland Vikings explore to Gulf of Mexico?
Paul MacQ
Donor
If you Have Settlement in Newfoundland with a Thousand or more, yes I do believe they could get as far as the Golf of Mexico. But would take a Generation or so I am thinking.
The effect of Being there and a big enough settlement looking for Trade Goods that might be useful for Trade in Europe is Hard to see,
Wintering camps that later become small trading posts and small Farmsteads could eventually lead that far yes. You need to get a big enough and secure centre close enough to send ships out.
I do like the idea of a Settlement in Newfoundland working out and the Natives being too few in number locally to defeat the Norse (I will use term Norse as Viking was a occupation/career Path not a people) take over.
Build that up you have a stepping stone to send out ships. If you start early enough you get people finding climate better and then little ice age making travelling harder and possibly to the point of cutting of these Western Norse from the influence of Europe.
Climate gets worse and I would believe that a Newfoundland would start looking tempting for those living in Greenland. Norse did have a written Language in the way of Ruins, 3-4000 Norse being built up for almost a Century before being cut off would put them in Good stead to build a Pagan Dominated culture. Give a couple of Hundred Years of being cut of from Europe Things could get interesting.
Natives having been infected like OTL with disease. Yet getting a chance to build back up after that with some Immunity in the Gene pool if/when the Iberians turn up.
I would see a more Native/Norse mix eventually grow yet if contact is made with Europe again within two hundred Years there would be a distinctive Norse Pagan culture still going, Possibly in time to Get the last of the Norse Pagan to See these Lands in the west as Odin’s gift to keep there faith, certainly a strong enough community to defend them selves with what a limited sea power Medieval Europe could send that far.
Cattle, Nordic Horse other Domestic Animals, Farming and Iron working The Nordics could give so Much to the Natives if someway of Friendly relations can be kept up.
How popular would beaver skins be in Medieval Europe? As one possible Trade good.
Just how sparsily populated was pre-Colombian Prince Edward Island and Anticosti? I hear that the First Nations people only went to Anticosti for game hunting.
If they traded through the St Lawrence River, would there be a drive among the Iroqois and the Ojibwa to copy the appearence of Longships, Knarrs or whatever would be chosen to sail inland towards the Great Lakes region?
And would the Althing of Iceland be an obvious governing model for Vinland, and how would it adapt and develop afterseveral hundred years after the initial settlement?
If they traded through the St Lawrence River, would there be a drive among the Iroqois and the Ojibwa to copy the appearence of Longships, Knarrs or whatever would be chosen to sail inland towards the Great Lakes region?
And would the Althing of Iceland be an obvious governing model for Vinland, and how would it adapt and develop afterseveral hundred years after the initial settlement?
As the climate worsens post-1300 the Labrador Norse would begin to look elsewhere further south. The Norse were very well aware of south = warm, north = colder. Perhaps defensible settlements on islands like Nantucket, Block Island and later, as the population grows, Long Island (Langstrand)
As an example English settlement in New England took off nearly a decade after the Pilgrims landed, causing a population explosion to a viable level in a single decade but this required intelligent and practical planning, organization with a much larger base willing to make the move or support it AND England either also allowing the move or actively favoring it. Greenland and Iceland don't come close to those standards. Possibly if a mass movement is made, especially from Greenland, but contact with Europe is going to be down for a long time...
In contrast Virginia was a net population loss until the second half of the 17th Century and here there won't be any cash crops, any convenient slaves to ship in...
In contrast Virginia was a net population loss until the second half of the 17th Century and here there won't be any cash crops, any convenient slaves to ship in...
In that neck of the woods? I'm not too sure about the Dorset culture or the early Innu/Beothuk. The Dorset culture were practically driven out of the Island of Newfoundland and adjacent areas of Labrador by the early Innu/Beothuk at the time of Leif Eiriksson's voyages because the Dorset culture basically abandoned most tools needed for warfare - including harpoons, which effectively restricted fishing to the those areas close enough to the Island of Newfoundland. Now, as for the early ancestors of the Míkmaq/Maliseet/Passamoquoddy, I'm not too sure - but I am certain on Labrador and the Island of Newfoundland.
You need more people than that in order to have a permanent settlement of Vinland by Norsemen. The reason for that is that there's competition out East - you need something to make people not want to go to the Baltic and points East.
And, pray, tell me how are you supposed to get iron in the Island of Newfoundland? Iron is one luxury they could do without - particularly if these *Vinlanders are going to be isolated for long periods of time. In addition, the only iron ore mine that I know of is along the Québec/Labrador border and well inland. AFAIK, there are also no areas where bog iron could develop - so iron will have to be imported from Europe, which means that it would be a luxury item. Really, the only thing that has the Island of Newfoundland going for it are the Grand Banks.
The area around the Gulf of St Lawrence would be more plausible - any further would raise some eyebrows, and that's assuming perfect conditions.
Yeah, and?
Because that's familiar territory for the Norsemen. After all, it was on the way to Constantinople.
I don't think so - as I already said, the area around the Gulf of St Lawrence would be more plausible, since that area alone would be a handful to deal with. This is especially true for those people who are not used to winter on this side of the Atlantic - for those people who are used to European winters, winter in Vinland would be a shock. Those people who stayed in Greenland and decide to go to Vinland would probably have it a bit better because it would be more or less familiar. The basis for Vinland's economy is most likely going to be a combination of farming and fishing (particularly if the Norsemen discover the Grand Banks). Plus, once the Medieval Warm Period ends, most *Vinlanders would be holed up in either the Island of Newfoundland, nearby settlements in Markland, or along the shore in modern-day New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and PEI. That's not to say that trade can't occur - there is evidence for some contact in the High Arctic, and there could be some trade with the local Aboriginal/First Nations groups, but that would be it.
More than a generation.
Actually, though, around that time (which is the transition from Common Scandinavian/Old Norse to the dialects of Old East Norse [Old Swedish, Old Danish, and Old Gutnish] in Sweden, Denmark, Götland, and points east on one hand and Old West Norse [Old Icelandic, Old Norwegian, and the hypothetical Old Faroese and Greenlandic Norse] in Norway, Iceland, and the North Atlantic) there was starting to be a transition towards the Latin alphabet and away from runes. In Iceland, for example, virtually all of the written materials that we know of were written in the Latin alphabet, not in runes - the few examples we have of runes were found in objects like baptismal fonts.
Not necessarily - since that would only work in the North Atlantic, not Mesoamerica. Mesoamerica would not have that immunity - plus, if the Black Death made its way to Vinland, both Norsemen and Aboriginal/First Nations people would die.
I could see that too, but since I'm working for a Christian Vinland in my TL (which does deal with this period of history, hence my interest), I could also see Vinlandic culture be similar to what was reported around the last time that we know of when Greenlandic Norse were still living (when there was a wedding taking place), which was that of a functioning medieval-era Christian society.
And vice versa.
Well, if OTL is any indication, . . .
True - or they could boink the local women more often, thus creating a early form of Métis people.
PEI was known to the Míkmaq as "Pigtogeoag", so it would be safe to say that there were Míkmaq people settling in PEI.
Not necessarily - not when the Norsemen discover the wonders of kayaks.
At first, yes - but it would take a bit more than that. After all, one of Alþingi's weaknesses (and one which would have to be addressed at some point for a future "Þjóðveldið Vínlands") was that there was no enforcement mechanism for any of Alþingi's decisions - thus, you could technically ignore most of what Alþingi decided. Thus, there needs to be some sort of executive in place to ensure that whatever Alþingi decided would be obeyed. Local þings and móts would probably have more importance than in Iceland because of the vast area of both Markland, Vínland, and Nýfudnaland (< the Island of Newfoundland, unless "Hvítramannaland" is used as the name of the Island), with a central Alþing (though I could also see a "Løgþing" develop as the High Court). Just some ideas that would serve as food for thought.
Well, the trouble with using the Norse penny as equivalent to trade and the like going south was that, IIRC, the Norse penny made its way to that particular stash well after the Norse are supposed to be in the Vinland area - all other contact would've been in Atlantic Canada and the High Arctic. So far, though, it's the only Norse artifact in the US that seems to be genuine - all other purported "evidence" of Norse settlement has been discredited as fakes.
Not really - what, for example, would explain the Norse contact with the Dorset culture and the early Inuit in the High Arctic?
I can see the descendents of the Norse colonizers resembling the OTL Metis people.
So, does that leave Anticosti as the primary site of the initial phase of Norse settlement?
Not necessarily - not when the Norsemen discover the wonders of kayaks.
I don't think Kayaks are going to be much use for conveying goods, such as animal livestock, wool, and the like.
At first, yes - but it would take a bit more than that. After all, one of Alþingi's weaknesses (and one which would have to be addressed at some point for a future "Þjóðveldið Vínlands") was that there was no enforcement mechanism for any of Alþingi's decisions - thus, you could technically ignore most of what Alþingi decided. Thus, there needs to be some sort of executive in place to ensure that whatever Alþingi decided would be obeyed. Local þings and móts would probably have more importance than in Iceland because of the vast area of both Markland, Vínland, and Nýfudnaland (< the Island of Newfoundland, unless "Hvítramannaland" is used as the name of the Island), with a central Alþing (though I could also see a "Løgþing" develop as the High Court). Just some ideas that would serve as food for thought.
Would they need to enforce the decrees of the Law-Thing by forming a part-time Hird or Leidang, which is created in the early years of colonization as a measure to protect their steadings and property against larger Skraeling clans? Especially, if they choose to land first in either Newfoundland or Prince Edward Island. And if the site of Vinland is secured during the 900's, some limited numbers of discontented Vikings or mercenaries could end up fleeing their from the Christianising monarchies of Scandinavia, and could lend their professionalism to any potential military development in Vinland.
As do I.
Not necessarily - for my TL at least, I'm still thinking of the initial phase as being in the Island of Newfoundland. Of course, that's because I'm having my TL as being a Christian Vinland that is essentially an anti-Scandinavia (i.e. *Vinlanders are strongly Roman Catholic whilst all other Nordic peoples are Protestant, *Vinland is poor and extremely corrupt compared to the rest of Norden, etc.) and the differing nature of settlement (spoiler warning: here, mainly because, at least according to the traditional narrative, it's because it's Christians that are fleeing their homes in Scandinavia due to a pagan backlash in Norway [even if, in reality, there were probably a significant pagan component of people], so the *Vinlanders here are a bit more religious than your average medieval-era Christian). Plus, the L'Anse-aux-Meadows excavation site is in an area that is known to have very little, if any, Beothuk settlement.
Just one of many things that the Norsemen would have to get used to by means of introduction - a cross-cultural exchange of sorts. The effect on the language would be immense, for sure.
Actually more protection from each other than from local Aboriginal/First Nations groups. Hence the need for enforcing Alþingi's decisions.
Peut-être.
Wolfpaw
Banned
Just a thought on surviving Nordic paganism;
Maybe it sort of becomes like the traditional Chinese religion in North America, Hong Kong, etc. It's not really mainstream per se, but there are still shrines sort of scattered about where people drop in to pray for things like luck, health, etc. Like Nordic joss houses.
Maybe it sort of becomes like the traditional Chinese religion in North America, Hong Kong, etc. It's not really mainstream per se, but there are still shrines sort of scattered about where people drop in to pray for things like luck, health, etc. Like Nordic joss houses.
Irrelevant. Around a thousand of Islanders went to Greenland. How many went to Baltic from Iceland?
The Western Settlement of Greenland was always under 1000 souls, and it was permanent.
I am inclined to expect that there is bog iron in Newfoundland. Bog iron was found even in Iceland!
But in order to get familiar with the way to Constantinople, the Norsemen needed to get around the rapids of Volkhov, and water divides to Dnieper, and rapids of Dnieper.
They would link up with the trade networks of the Mississippi Culture.
That makes some sense - sounds like how Ireland coped with Christianity in OTL.
The Scandinavians on the board would know better than me, but the East held more promise in the eyes of ordinary Scandinavians than the North Atlantic. The North Atlantic sounded more like a bunch of obstacles without much promise than Russia, Constantinople, and the like. In order to have people going to Vinland, you need to make Vinland more attractive than going "a viking" to Kievan Rus' to ordinary Scandinavians (modern-day Denmark, Sweden, and Norway - Iceland and Greenland are part of "Norden", not Scandinavia). Vinland, more than other areas of the North Atlantic, requires some form of massive European immigration in order for it to work - hence the people factor is relevant.
There isn't any bog iron on the Island of Newfoundland. Trust me on this one.
Or they could just use a route through the Med.
There is no Mississippi culture in the Northeast and the High Arctic, and I would seriously doubt any Norseman going that far south.
Ahem. It took all of 10 seconds on google to find the website of a Canadian geologist (here) who has a photo of samples of bog iron ore he collected at St Lunaire, Newfoundland. Very close to L'Anse aux Meadows, in fact.
The reports of L'Anse aux Meadows also describe how local bog iron ore was used to make iron nails, rivets, and tools at that site. The vicinity of L'Anse aux Meadows includes a lot of swampy ground where bog iron accumulates. So bog iron was available for the Norse if they could establish themselves in Vinland.