Help with HRE disintegration in 13 and 14 century

Hi Guys,

Somehow related to the other thread about HRE (and somehow related to my own timeline), can you please help me with some clarification about the processes of disintegration of the Empire?

It seems that nearly in all Germany, sometime in the middle of 13 century, both the big domains and the smaller ones start to be split among brothers (Brandenburg, Bavaria, Nassau, etc.). Why this ? I know that it coincide with the crumbling of Imperial power... but still, the process started during the reign of Frederick II which was quite very powerful emperor. Yah, there was the German inheritance tradition, but still, previously this period of time was far less substantial. What was changed in the collective mental?

By the reign of Rudolf I, there were still huge regions in the Empire winch were Imperial lands (imperial cities, imperial provinces, etc) which were out of the control of great families. They were very crumbled and in the hands of small local nobles. Which was more beneficial for the Emperor? Strong and large duchies/margraviate/counties with powerful leaders, or a puzzle of small entities which theoretically responded directly to Emperor but practically they do not care too much?

Now, could it be sometime after a long period of continuous civil wars (something similar to Interregnum but repeated some two or three times) that an Emperor to resurrect old duchies titles (steam duchies) and award them to some more prominent nobles (not forcibly to his allies, but even some to his enemies which force this upon him) ? Like Duchy of Saxony, Franconia, Turingia, Bavaria (Bavaria was still a duchy but covered way less land than the steam one), eventually Swabia ? Or even granting some royal crowns (creating a Kingdom of Saxony centered in Brunswick-Luneburg or a Kingdom of Bavaria) ?


Thanks!
 
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The process didn't start with Frederick II - he just gave it a very strong push which made it much more accentuated (and eventually, too estabilished to undo).
Much like other momentous figures whose reign was followed by a decine, he exerted his domains' resources in trying to do too much and holding everything; he particularly neglected Germany, where privileges got so entrenched that even he, even when in a favorable position, was forced to confirn them (particularly rights of coinage and justice, two of the most important) with his Statutum at Cividale.
Thus, the problem was not how to organize the vassals but that Emperors no longer had the authority needed to pursue meaningful policies; something that the incoherence of the Imperial demesne (most of the choicest bits, sure, but still scattered all around the place) only helped along. Resurrecting stem Duchies could only be problematic - each of them would be well able to challenge centrale power, while at least the fragmented entities were reliant on the Emperor for protection and - as long as he didn't ask for much - wouldn't band against him.
 
Ok, but still.... why the nobles would prefer to split the domains if their ancestors preferred to do otherwise? Why this shift? Co-Dukes, Co-Margraves, co-....stuff
 
Their ancestors used to divide too - it's called Salic patrimony, and the reason the Karlings (which still were fairly Germanic) eventually split their Empire. It's just too rooted in their cultural heritage, so much in fact that when most of the switches to primogeniture happened, they still had to get the Emperor's approval because the change was perceived as contrary to the original spirit of the fiefdom.
And up to the High Middle Ages, the system actually worked fairly well because it ensured tighter control over large tracts of land which no existing administration could otherwise allow.
 
Domain spliting happened a lot before the decline in Imperial Authority, it was simply seen as a fair way to compensate multiple sons (those that weren't in the church that is), look at the Carolingians (and the Merovingians that came before them).

For the stem duchies, they have proven time and again to be a pain in the Emperor's ass, Swabia rebelled a lot (notably Liudolf and Rudolph), Saxony had a lot of particularism (Great Saxon Revolt, Lothair of Supplinburg, Welfs), Bavaria (War of the Three Henries, Otto of Nordhein, Welfs again), you get it, so yeah, a bunch of small irrelevant statelets were much more useful and reliable than humongous magnates, the fact they didn't care about the Emperor was just the symptom that the Empire was crumbling, in this case having large vassals (like the Duchy of Saxony originally was) would be more harmful.
 
Hm... yes, you are right. Smaller is better...

But I wonder, could a brunch of rebellious nobles/magnates impose upon the Emperor (after a successful rebellion) to have them grant whatever they want? Titles, lands, nominal control over smaller counties (suzerainty) ? Eventually coming with acceptance of the primogeniture for their lands (similar to the fake Austrian Privilegium Maior)?

Even if those grants could not be immediately enforced, those nobles (the most 8-9 powerful magnates of the Empire) will have a legal pretext to consolidate their powers and lands by forcing those petty nobles to recognize their suzerainty? Therefore, slowly the Empire will start to evolve into a small group of very powerful medium-size states which vaguely recognize the Emperor authority but practically they are independent.

Example: Margrave of Brandenburg is suzerain over Pomerania, Pomeralia and Mecklenburg and he force those dukes and counts to recognize their power, practically absorbing their lands into Brandenburg over the time (actually, what really happened in OTL but at later time, as I'm looking for my timeline to end of 13 century) ?
 
First and foremost: what you say is exactly what eventually happened, and after some conflict was formally recognized (alongside with some restructuring) with the Golden Bull in 1356.
However, the HRE never vanished because in the post-1356 scenario, everybody stood to lose security and influence by a collapse of the Imperial system - that's why it only underwent some bland restructuring and improvement.

As for your timeline, the problems I foresee (and which you can butterfly away with good PODs) are:

- The nobles were first recognized as domini terræ (sole governers of their domains) in 1232, but of course the traditional attitude of subservience took a few extra dozens to really corrode away (as the central power kept becoming weaker). So while in a way that's exactly what you want, you'll have to slightly accelerate this process.
- Pre-1250 (death of Frederic II) Holy Roman Empire actually was a fairly strong entity, well able to wage war on the Papacy, rebuff French expansion eastwards, and even having some kind of hold over northern and central Italy while still expanding eastwards in what will later be known as 'Prussia'. Unless you go the 'lucky marriage' route, it won't be easy to have a proto-Archduke of sorts; that's why early Habsburg expansion mainly happened through political posturing and marriage acquisitions.
- If you're going the proto-Prussia route, Pomerania was hotly contested between Saxons, Danes, Poles and Brandeburg itself while all eastern lands fell under the purview of the Kingdom of Poland; it's declining since the half of the 12th Century, so some leeway for earlier expansion can be found.

Hope this can be useful :D
 
First and foremost: what you say is exactly what eventually happened, and after some conflict was formally recognized (alongside with some restructuring) with the Golden Bull in 1356.
However, the HRE never vanished because in the post-1356 scenario, everybody stood to lose security and influence by a collapse of the Imperial system - that's why it only underwent some bland restructuring and improvement.

As for your timeline, the problems I foresee (and which you can butterfly away with good PODs) are:

- The nobles were first recognized as domini terræ (sole governers of their domains) in 1232, but of course the traditional attitude of subservience took a few extra dozens to really corrode away (as the central power kept becoming weaker). So while in a way that's exactly what you want, you'll have to slightly accelerate this process.
- Pre-1250 (death of Frederic II) Holy Roman Empire actually was a fairly strong entity, well able to wage war on the Papacy, rebuff French expansion eastwards, and even having some kind of hold over northern and central Italy while still expanding eastwards in what will later be known as 'Prussia'. Unless you go the 'lucky marriage' route, it won't be easy to have a proto-Archduke of sorts; that's why early Habsburg expansion mainly happened through political posturing and marriage acquisitions.
- If you're going the proto-Prussia route, Pomerania was hotly contested between Saxons, Danes, Poles and Brandeburg itself while all eastern lands fell under the purview of the Kingdom of Poland; it's declining since the half of the 12th Century, so some leeway for earlier expansion can be found.

Hope this can be useful :D

Thanks for your answer...
In my tl the situation is.... a little bit complicated. The Pod is in 1200 France...

Otto IV had a child from his wife Beatrice of Swabia and mannage to retains a lot of power in Saxony. Frederick II is less successful than Otl and is killed by the Mongols in battle. The Mongols make a raid in Germany and Italy before retreating in Hungary.

After that, the welfs and the ghibelines fight eachother in a long civil war.... the Hohenstaufens are finished on legitimate line but three young Welf boys survives. Emperor becomes Rudolf von Habsburg 20 years earlier than Otl...

In 1265, the young welfs start making trubles. Rudolf try to arrest them but one escape and begun a rebelion. He defeat Rudolf after 6 bloody years but the other nobles do not want to crown him Emperor, prefearing a far weakened Rudolf. All the way there is a big chunk of Capetian involvement and scheaming (the TL is a Capetian wank).
 
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So... my dilemma is how can I obtain powerful entities entities in the empire earlier.... That will lead to both quicker disintegration of the Empire and in the same-time, to apparition of medium-power strong states....

Or the OTL process is inevitable... ?
 
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