Help Wanted: Keep USSR alive to 2091

Apologies if I ever posted this before but I really don't remember :(

I'm working on a novel where the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact is still around until the 22nd century or there abouts, essentially World War Three in our future but althist because the USSR is still around; INSPACE as it will be a hard sciency space opera as NATO and the Warsaw pact (and China) have colonized the inner solar system and have perfected interplanetary flight. Go Ruskosmos!!!!

The big divergence starts in that the 6th Shock Army under Vlasov manages to extract itself from its unsupported offencive and pull back resulting in less casualties overall as the Soviets retain one of their better Deep Operations commanders, secondly fictional character Isaac Rosdestvenski who is part of a NKVD attachment to the Dorogobuzh air drop who doesn't exist survives to become Premier/General-Secretary instead of Kruschchev.

The dude is essentially a expy of Peter Wiggin from Ender's Game series by Orson Scott Card as a young political genius who outmaneuvers the older members and gets them to place himself as GS as a "Not-Kruschchev" candidate but basically becomes a more benign yet more adventerous/bold version of Stalin.

What I want to have happen is that instead of pulling out from Iran which allows for British-US backed Iran to move in to the Soviet occupation zone and liquidate the Soviet backed Iranians he has them stay put. I am not sure what concession the British and Americans had to offer to have the Soviets withdraw but I might have a butterfly where that offer isn't accepted.

Soviets as such manage to take control of all of Iran in basically a different version of the Korean War, and capitalizing on their success encourage and support the Communists in Iraq who were allied with the other secularist Iraqi's who coup'ed the pro-British monarchy (iirc) do a coup within a coup and take control of Iraq.

Because Isaac is jewish I want a feasible means of making Israel in the Soviet camp instead of the Western/NATO camp but at the cost of making Arabs anti Moscow but pro USA, flipping the OTL dynamic.

So with Iraqi and Iranian oil "money" plus earlier enacted Kosgyn reforms (more thoroughly enacted as well) with a limited partial cultural "thaw" we have a healthier Soviet economy that while still a command economy has some more flexibility and lacks the money problems of the OTL USSR.

Thus at a minimum I think if these seem plausible that I can posit that the Soviet Union as a result would be able to last much much longer.

Additionally I think the real issue at root cause for the Sino-Soviet split is kruschev being a douche and essentially angering Mao, I think it was an entirely avertable crisis if the Soviets were less revisionist and more open with China with the understanding it is always better to have China with you then against you.

Thoughts?
 
While the scenario is interesting, I think it should be moved to a different section of the forum.

I think its feasible to be here as the main divergences occur between 1930 and 1990.

I agree w/you RS that this forum is a feasible place for this story as its underlying POD does indeeed fall within the forum's time partmeters. I also can see how some would question how well, if at all, it fits here. Regardless, your scenario in interesting, and I hope you get the feedback and encouragement you desire.
 
I could also give you my original TL Red Star Triumphant, but you can improve it from there. I also am doing a rewrite, which is Paint the Revolution Black and Red.
 
I could also give you my original TL Red Star Triumphant, but you can improve it from there. I also am doing a rewrite, which is Paint the Revolution Black and Red.

No problem, are you also perhaps Russian or knowledgeable in such? I could use help in coming up with Russian naming conventions for their new warships, russian/soviet names, sociology, red army traditions etc.

Like how offiers refer to each other, to enlisted, to higher rank above them, to lower rank below them, to specialists, etc.
 
No problem, are you also perhaps Russian or knowledgeable in such? I could use help in coming up with Russian naming conventions for their new warships, russian/soviet names, sociology, red army traditions etc.

Like how offiers refer to each other, to enlisted, to higher rank above them, to lower rank below them, to specialists, etc.

Well, I only know a few Russian words, but I'll be glad to hand over Red Star Triumphant to you. Keep in mind that this was a challenge I took from an author who got himself banned, but one of the main challenge was that I have to make the Philippines, Yugoslavia, Egypt, Iran, and hopefully Indonesia pro-Soviet states. Also, the USSR in Red Star Triumphant was led by a Trotskyite named Ivan Nikitich Smirnov.

Here's the link: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=213605

No, I'm not Russian but I often study Russian history in my free time. Heck, I have a Russian TL that I am doing right now.
 

Old Airman

Banned
1. No Ruskosmos. Sovkosmos all the way. USSR was a "Soviet Socialist" state, not a "Russian" one.
2. Jewish guy at helm of post-Stalin USSR is ASB. You need an earlier POD.
3. I can suggest you to avoid the whole thorny issue "How did the USSR survive" at all. Just mention in your text that it did. "Period, dear reader. You don't want it? Read other book. In my book USSR survived."
4. You can draw on WWII history for names of ships, units etc. Great Patriotic War was a huge source of inspiration, for lack of better word. Units would be named after battles (Kantemirovskaya division or Stalingradskaya space marine army). Spaceships would be named after generals (cruiser "Marshal Zhukov") or war heroes ("Alexander Gastello", without rank, ranks in names are for generals and marshals). Or use Russian toponims. Battleships named after capitals of SSR (Kiev, Mink, Baku), cruisers named after regional centers (Kostroma, Novosibirsk), smaller or transport ships named after rivers or lesser towns.
 
1. No Ruskosmos. Sovkosmos all the way. USSR was a "Soviet Socialist" state, not a "Russian" one.
2. Jewish guy at helm of post-Stalin USSR is ASB. You need an earlier POD.
3. I can suggest you to avoid the whole thorny issue "How did the USSR survive" at all. Just mention in your text that it did. "Period, dear reader. You don't want it? Read other book. In my book USSR survived."
4. You can draw on WWII history for names of ships, units etc. Great Patriotic War was a huge source of inspiration, for lack of better word. Units would be named after battles (Kantemirovskaya division or Stalingradskaya space marine army). Spaceships would be named after generals (cruiser "Marshal Zhukov") or war heroes ("Alexander Gastello", without rank, ranks in names are for generals and marshals). Or use Russian toponims. Battleships named after capitals of SSR (Kiev, Mink, Baku), cruisers named after regional centers (Kostroma, Novosibirsk), smaller or transport ships named after rivers or lesser towns.

Because I want to write a prequel at some point from Isaac's perspective to explain it all in detail; while at the sametime having enough of an idea of the main events so characters in the 'present' of the main story can make reference to it. I don't mind ASB in a single character as long as I can make it compelling; Peter Wiggin becoming Hegemon at 19 is also ASB but it is still a good novel. Reading up on the post Stalin power struggle the two big things were Beria's abortive coup attempt and the secret speech, everything else was a lot of political backroom maneuvering that I think anyone on the politburo could have gotten into if they were bold enough.
 

Old Airman

Banned
Because I want to write a prequel at some point from Isaac's perspective to explain it all in detail; while at the sametime having enough of an idea of the main events so characters in the 'present' of the main story can make reference to it.
Then, in a sense, you're making POD too big and too implausible in the same time. You want "somewhat saner" Soviet economy? You don't need that douche Vlasov for that. Just keep Beria in power and let him pass the helm to his ally. Basically, there were two "ideological" groups within Stalin's closest circle - ideologues (Molotov, Khruschev) and pragmatics (Beria), and ideologues won IOTL, although they had been steadily losing the battle in 1948-1953. Stalin himself, in his last years of life, initiated several important reforms to strip the Communist Party from it's "daily ruling" powers (leaving state's management to bureaucracy). Khruschev's coup was an amazing example of "loser's success", losing side suddenly changing rules of the game (involving army into political struggle) to it's advantage. And immediate result of it was (contrary to a popular opinion) a severe decrease in economic freedom. Private land plots available for peasants ("home gardens") were drastically reduced, many co-operatives operating in manufacturing or service were closed or converted into state enterprises, this sort of stuff. There's a good chance that Beria at the helm of the USSR would do exactly opposite, creating some sort of mixed economy, with State-controllled heavy industry, utilities and telecom but private (or independent co-operative) enterprises allowed in services and consumer goods industries. And your "Rozhdestvensky" buddy (does not sound terribly Jewish, by the way, the surname is originating from "Rozhdestvo", meaning "Christmas" in Russian) might inherit leadership after Beria is dead. By that time (1960s, I guess) USSR leadership might be pragmatic enough to accept a Jew at the top. Or, better yet, make him a crypto-Jew. After all, there's very persistent rumour that Andropov was born Jewish. And Yevgeny Primakov, despite him being very anti-Israel, is a Jew.
Now, back to your "Iran-Iraq" POD. Giving USSR Iranian oil post-1945 is ASB even for an ASB. Unless you make Pacific war really going pear-shaped for USA, so Americans are willing to give Soviets anything in exchange for their military assistance in dealing with Japs. Besides, USSR has Siberian oil and gas, so they would have monies for their reforms without grabbing Mideastern oil.
Your linkage of "Soviet-Israeli alliance" and Arabs joining American side is wrong. Arabs did not go to USSR because it was antisemitic. Arabs went to Soviets after USA refused to help them with modernization (read on Aswan) and consistently supported every medieval religious weirdo in the region who looked at literacy and a clean toilet as a great crime against Allah. Even with cordial relationships between USSR and Israel, educated Arab elite still would want to modernize their countries and USA are not less likely to refuse their pleas of help. So, just like in our history Turkey and Greece joined NATO, Arabs would be somewhat close to USSR in your timeline.
 
Having Vlasov still around is just butterflies, I don't need him; but I am open to other minor differences to the timeline. Since Vlasov was one of the better generals I picked him as means to having in terms of statistics, a slightly better eastern front, less casualties, maybe a division here or there not mauled in the meat grinder stuff that doesn't change all that much but I can have for butterflies.

"losers success" is interesting, so what you are suggesting is finding a way to have Zhukov ally with Isaac instead of Kruschev to prevent the military from intervening?

There's a good chance that Beria at the helm of the USSR would do exactly opposite, creating some sort of mixed economy, with State-controllled heavy industry, utilities and telecom but private (or independent co-operative) enterprises allowed in services and consumer goods industries.

Yeah, though the Koysgin reforms afaik was in the 1960's, so basically Isaac would just need to let this trend continue or encourage it.

And your "Rozhdestvensky" buddy (does not sound terribly Jewish, by the way, the surname is originating from "Rozhdestvo", meaning "Christmas" in Russian) might inherit leadership after Beria is dead. By that time (1960s, I guess) USSR leadership might be pragmatic enough to accept a Jew at the top. Or, better yet, make him a crypto-Jew. After all, there's very persistent rumour that Andropov was born Jewish. And Yevgeny Primakov, despite him being very anti-Israel, is a Jew.

I'm not too sure how this is really out of left field enough to be "ASB", Jews were highly visible component of the Soviet Union with many leading politicians, thinkers, scientists, engineers etc were Jewish. Beria strikes me as the type of person to prefer to work from the shadows, maybe if he and Isaac were friends he might prefer to stay there instead of opening himself up to additional risk and publicity.

I picked the name at random from a map of Siberia :eek: But wasn't it common for Jewish families to rename themselves to try to fit in or assimilate? But crypto-Jew may work for my purposes.

Now, back to your "Iran-Iraq" POD. Giving USSR Iranian oil post-1945 is ASB even for an ASB. Unless you make Pacific war really going pear-shaped for USA, so Americans are willing to give Soviets anything in exchange for their military assistance in dealing with Japs. Besides, USSR has Siberian oil and gas, so they would have monies for their reforms without grabbing Mideastern oil.

My impression was that the Arab oil embargo in the 70's was considered as "the" reason for the Soviet Union to have lasted to 1989 as it did since the rise of oil prices injected hard currency into the Soviet economy. Additionally I don't really see, even with my POD the Soviet economy managing to make all that many efficiency gains in resource consumption, much of Soviet economic growth was through astounding wastage of energy where even with Siberia gas and oil they could be consuming so much of it that they might not have all that much available for export; this is where Iranian and Iraqi oil could come in, as a deliberate long term policy objective by Isaac. I am not really aiming to come up with 100% plausible history, just a plausible enough history to serve as the medium in which my characters interact. Isaac has his own motivations and ambitions that drive him that don't 100% match OTL Soviet policy goals.

Your linkage of "Soviet-Israeli alliance" and Arabs joining American side is wrong. Arabs did not go to USSR because it was antisemitic. Arabs went to Soviets after USA refused to help them with modernization (read on Aswan) and consistently supported every medieval religious weirdo in the region who looked at literacy and a clean toilet as a great crime against Allah. Even with cordial relationships between USSR and Israel, educated Arab elite still would want to modernize their countries and USA are not less likely to refuse their pleas of help. So, just like in our history Turkey and Greece joined NATO, Arabs would be somewhat close to USSR in your timeline.

Wouldn't the USA be more willing to extend a hand to Arab governments if it could help contain Soviet adventurism in the Middle East? Exchanging aid for the ability to deploy forces in their country to deter further Soviet gains in Jordan, Turkey or Syria?

To clarify though, the events I've written are just an outline I am formulating, I am very open and appreciative for input and changes to increase plausible believability as long as some core things are intact such as Isaac maneuvering to become Premier and a generally more successful USSR internationally.

Just to be clear I 'meant' Sovkosmos as Ruskosmos is just how its known as today, I was just expressing enthusism to the idea of the Soviet space program being able to in my fiction set up Gundamesque space colonies at the larange orbits.
 
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Another thing I want to have happen is the USSR "win" the Cuban Missile Crisis and get its missiles to Cuba and fully operational which helps restrict the USA's freedom of movement to counter USSR's adventurism, but I am not familiar enough with the CMC to know if the USA could be prevented from attacking Cuba nukes or no nukes.

Were the Americans purely worried about a surprise attack from the Cuba bases? What if they had good information that it was just another chess move?
 
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