(Help needed) The Erbreichsplan and a centralized HRE.

That's because they don't have control over the person of the pope.They should have the pope and most of the higher ranked church officials be with the emperor at most time or at least in his capital/center of power.

Except the Papacy has some aces up their sleeves, the other European Catholic kingdoms, headed by France.
This may very well lead to an earlier split between an Avignon and a Rome Papacy. At least, if the Hohenstaufen tried this.

This might have been possible, if the Emperor would have 'won' the Investiture Controversy.
 
darthfanta, Karolus Rex, the main problem with all this is the order of prestige and precedence. Italy has more tradition, more culture, more urban civilization and simply more wealth than Germany. In religious times, it has so much more holiness. The on ething Grmany is better in (in these times) is organizing a cohesive fighting force. Which usually works for keeping Italy down enough.

Having your heir rule over Italy while you stay in Germany will be strange, but leaving Italy once you have reached the imperial title? That might have practical reasons, but I really contend that the people of these times will not be able to see that logic.
I am rather sure that under such a scheme, the first Rex Romanorum will "go native" in Italy. Once his father dies and he can get himself crowned as emperor, he will realize that under the new system, once his son grows up and he gets old and sickly, he will have to leave the sunny shores and palazzi of Italy for cold, grey and rainy Germany. Forever.

I mean, Frederick II. did grow up in Italy in OTL and while he did not give up his power over Germany, he did not like to go north of the Alps, either. And why should he?

And the opposite model - the ruler in or near Rome, the adult heir in Germany sending support and supply, did not work well either.

Taking the pope hostage has its practical problems as well. Aveignon was surrounded by France, but it was not French, it was a papal possession. There is no place in Germany that has nearly the historical clout and prestige to house the Bishop of Rome (and he is pope just because he is the bishop-patriarch of Rome).

What I could see: One emperor taking tha current pope back to Germany to ensure the coronation of the next emperor. But once that Pope dies, where are the cardinals? Also in Germany? You cannot tie them down perpetually. It needs just one cardinal and a rival ruler and there will be another pope and probablyx another emperor. Because the German pope and the German emperor will lack the universal prestige if they`ve never been in Rome.
 
I agree that Frankfurt am Main is a likely candidate for the German capital; and Aachen as the German equivalent of Reims/Westminster (which IOTL it basically was during the middle ages)?

Probably. It is a fine place for a big ceremony, but as permanent centre of adminsitration and government? Under one set of circumstances, namely the Luxemburg dynasty with domains in Luxemburg and Brabant getting the German crown and keeping it without shifting the business to Bohemia. And that is rather difficult, I guess.
 
By the Luxemburgs the Statutum in favorem principum is on, so nope.

After Fred II the only way I see the HRE getting a form is a crushing Habsburg victory in the 30YW.
 
Probably. It is a fine place for a big ceremony, but as permanent centre of adminsitration and government? Under one set of circumstances, namely the Luxemburg dynasty with domains in Luxemburg and Brabant getting the German crown and keeping it without shifting the business to Bohemia. And that is rather difficult, I guess.

Brabant-Limburg only came to the house of Luxembourg by marriage, also duchess Johanna of Lothier, Brabant & Limburg was 15 years older than her husband duke Wenceslaus of Luxembourg. So it might very well be possible Brabant-Limburg passes out of Luxembourg hands again.
However once the house of Luxembourg gained the kingdom of Bohemia, they would shift their base east, just like how the Habsburgs did, when they gained the duchies of Austria & Styria.
 
Brabant-Limburg only came to the house of Luxembourg by marriage, also duchess Johanna of Lothier, Brabant & Limburg was 15 years older than her husband duke Wenceslaus of Luxembourg. So it might very well be possible Brabant-Limburg passes out of Luxembourg hands again.
However once the house of Luxembourg gained the kingdom of Bohemia, they would shift their base east, just like how the Habsburgs did, when they gained the duchies of Austria & Styria.

You're right.

Separate from the OP, if we look for a way to have Aachen as German capital with a PoD after 1000, a possibility might be to take the Battle of Worringen 1288 and spin out from there. After all, everyone in North Western Germany participated there.
Kaart_Woeringen.jpg
 
Having your heir rule over Italy while you stay in Germany will be strange, but leaving Italy once you have reached the imperial title? That might have practical reasons, but I really contend that the people of these times will not be able to see that logic.

Yes i didn't thought about that problem. My other idea was to create a branch of the house to rule italy but they would probably go native

I am rather sure that under such a scheme, the first Rex Romanorum will "go native" in Italy. Once his father dies and he can get himself crowned as emperor, he will realize that under the new system, once his son grows up and he gets old and sickly, he will have to leave the sunny shores and palazzi of Italy for cold, grey and rainy Germany. Forever.

Common germany can't possibly be that bad - Just joking

Taking the pope hostage has its practical problems as well. Aveignon was surrounded by France, but it was not French, it was a papal possession. There is no place in Germany that has nearly the historical clout and prestige to house the Bishop of Rome (and he is pope just because he is the bishop-patriarch of Rome).

What I could see: One emperor taking tha current pope back to Germany to ensure the coronation of the next emperor. But once that Pope dies, where are the cardinals? Also in Germany? You cannot tie them down perpetually. It needs just one cardinal and a rival ruler and there will be another pope and probablyx another emperor. Because the German pope and the German emperor will lack the universal prestige if they`ve never been in Rome.

You don't need to do that, just need to like the Byzantine Papacy, in which they could only become pope if the emperor gave them approval for the piscopal consecration. They only needed to appoint a bishop/cardinal they could control
 
@ Westphalian: I'm from Brabant, of course I know about the battle of Woeringen; duke Jan I of Brabant was one the most famous dukes of the duchy. :)
A different outcome would have meant a personal union between the duchy of Limburg and the counties of Gelre & Zutphen, in such a TL the latter two might have been integrated in the former, so a duchy of Gelre may never arise. (Limburg, though a duchy, was rather small.)
OTOH as a Brabantian I prefer the OTL:D.

I'm less sure about how this would affect the possibility of Aachen becoming the capital of the empire.
 
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Hello Everyone, I'm in the process of writing my first serious alternate history timeline, and I came here to look for some advice regarding my Point of Divergence. I am a total Holy Roman Empire fanboy, and as such, this timeline will be revolving around a HRE that managed to centralize during an (Extended) Hohenstaufen Dynasty. My main question for all of you is as follows: Would the following two points of divergence (I am using both in this timeline) result in a more centralized HRE later on?

  • Point of Divergance 1: Heinrich VI von Hohenstaufen passes the Erbreichsplan (More info here: Wikipedia Link), however with the addition that Italy succeeds from the Empire De-facto due to revolts (This is to prevent future emperors from having to manage two kingdoms at once, which was from my understanding a major downfall for the Hohenstaufen Emperors)
  • Point of Divergance 2: Heinrich VI lives longer than he did in our timeline, averting the war between the Welf Family and the Hohenstaufen (The one between Phillip of Swabia and Otto IV von Welf).

My Goals for the timeline are very vague as of now, the primary feature of this timeline will be a more centralized Holy Roman Empire, which becomes hereditary under the Hohenstaufen Family.

Would these two changes allow for the Hohenstaufen Family to centralize the Empire? Just making sure that I'm not on the wrong track with my writing so far.

Author's note: I'm in 11th grade, so go easy on me if I have my OTL history wrong, as the HRE is rarely ever mentioned in high school history courses :( . Thanks in Advance,

- Hadaril

You have my complete surport because I love any and all hohenstaufen timelines
 
Yes i didn't thought about that problem. My other idea was to create a branch of the house to rule italy but they would probably go native



Common germany can't possibly be that bad - Just joking



You don't need to do that, just need to like the Byzantine Papacy, in which they could only become pope if the emperor gave them approval for the piscopal consecration. They only needed to appoint a bishop/cardinal they could control


IMO the main problem remains: To enforce things in Rome, your centre of gravity has to be in Italy.

But around 1200, the emperors needed German bodies to enforce their will in Italy, which means staying in Germany a lot.

That is the attempt to square the circle. It cannot succeed.

A German kingdom without any imperial or Roman pretense might flourish and might be centralised.

An Italian/Roman empire that taxes the rich cities and pays mercenaries from Germany (including Switzerland) might have succeeded as well.

But combined? It will not work for too long.
 
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@ Westphalian: I'm from Brabant, of course I know about the battle of Woeringen; duke Jan I of Brabant was one the most famous dukes of the duchy. :)
A different outcome would have meant a personal union between the duchy of Limburg and the counties of Gelre & Zutphen, in such a TL the latter two might have been integrated in the former, so a duchy of Gelre may never arise. (Limburg, though a duchy, was rather small.)
OTOH as a Brabantian I prefer the OTL:D.

I'm less sure about how this would affect the possibility of Aachen becoming the capital of the empire.

I had no concrete idea, but in German historiography it is often mentioned that the battle ended the political aspirations of the Archbishopric of Cologne. I was looking for a PoD that made Lower Lotharingia a more integral (instead of marginal) part of the HRE, with a powerful AB of Cologne as somehow replacing the AB of Mainz as main Chancellor. It was a very vague idea.
 
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I had no concrete idea, but in German historiography it is often mentioned that the battle ended the political aspirations of the Archbishopric of Cologne. I was looking for a PoD that made Lower Lotharingia a more integral (instead of marginal) part of the HRE, with a powerful AB of Cologne as somehow replacing the AB of Mainz as main Chancellor. It was a very vague idea.

OTOH the dukes of Brabant, counts of Leuven, were the last ones to actually hold the ducal dignity over Lower Lotharingia. However the Diet of Schwäbisch Hall reduced their ducal authority to the territories under there control, did however retain the title now referred to as Lothier (the dukes of Brabant kept using Lotharingia though).
At the time when the counts of Leuven finally became dukes of Lower Lotharingia, this was disputed by the ruler of Limburg, who adopted and was later recognized as having the personal title of a duke (they could use the title, but weren't really equal to Lower Lotharingia etc.).
Keulen OTOH though formally the archdiocese coincided with most of Lower Lotharingia, their worldly authority never went far beyond the Rhineland parts of Lower Lotharingia. Not to mention that Brabant and Limburg, both saw themselves as the rightful ruler of Lower Lotharingia.

OTOH Brabant, Limburg and Gelre probably were all more an issue than Cologne from the Low Countries perspective. Also IIRC didn't the town of Cologne support the Brabant side and the archbishop the Gelre side?

Anyway let's say Gelre does indeed win and might end up as part of the duchy of Limburg. Then the archbishop of Cologne might still play a role, but TTL Limburg-Gelre-Zutphen will definitely becomes a bigger regional rival than OTL Brabant-Limburg was. Limburg-Gelre-Zutphen will be very interested in for instance Kleef and Gulik.
IOTL getting Limburg also ensured Brabant had a better access to the Meuse and Rhine trade, without a rival too powerful rival in position to hurt them.
 
Holy cow everyone, didn't expect to come back from vacation and see -this- many replies! Thank you all for your support!

While on vacation, I came up with a kind of outlandish idea for a possible "Italian Solution". My proposition is this: After the Erbreichsplan is passed by Heinrich VI, and a good 50 years have passed (During which Heinrich VI is busy crushing revolts and then confiscating land to add to his own power), Heinrich VI's heir, Frederick II is born with another brother. I was thinking that possibly a compromise would be made between the brothers in that one could manage Italy, and one could manage Germany. Assuming they both each have a son, the Hohenstaufen Family could split into two branches, one managing Italy + Burgundy and the other managing Germany. Eventually, both will become centralized and diverge from each other de-facto, while de-jure remaining inside the Holy Roman Empire to ensure that neither of them suffer the loss of prestige or authority from leaving the Empire.

I'm not sure if that would have a negative impact on short-term stability / Authority inside the empire, but I was wondering what you guys would think about this solution.

My big takeaways thus far from this thread (Which I will attempt to incorporate into my timeline) are as follows:
  • Centralization will take a very long time, and will require crushing revolts and taking their land to boost the emperor's own power.
  • A combined Italian and German Kingdom will never last for long. The two need to be separate or one needs to dominate the other.
  • The Pope would have to be moved to Germany, which is a very hard thing to accomplish and may or may not be possible in my timeline.
  • Hereditary monarchy isn't enough on its own to centralize: Many other factors need to come into play in order for centralization to take effect.
  • Italy gave the Emperor a LOT of authority, so just releasing it isn't an option for the Emperor.

Once again guys, thank you so much, and I look forward to continued support. :)
 
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