Help: Issues such as Foreign and Domestic Policies of the USA and CSA in ATL + more

I'm trying to work on an ATL that involves a longer ACW that ends in a victory for the CSA but it still needs a lot of work. I was hoping that some of you might be able to help me with some details on how things would work out in the world I'm trying to create, and if any of you would like to offer help in cowriting it with me I would appreciate it very much!

Some of the major PODs that I have in mind that will affect the rest of the timeline include.
  1. A longer ACW with a higher death toll. When it should end exactly I haven't worked out yet.
  2. Lincoln survives and is able to finish his 2nd presidency.
  3. The boarders drawn out after the war are very messy and many southern states are split up with one part Union one part Confederate. You can see the maps I've made on these threads ( https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=227297) (https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=227302)
  4. The CSA's boarder extends into Arizona and makes it harder for the USA to give help to the Juaristas in Mexico and might help Maximillian keep his throne.
Some of the first things I want to work out include what kind of foreign and domestic policies would exist in an America with both a USA and CSA (whose boarder extends into the southern Arizona territory ITTL). How will the settling of the west, the building of railroads, the treatment of Native Americans, black suffrage, and the dealings with Canada and Mexico be different? Some commonly used tropes that I want to avoid though include the USA going to war with Canada soon after the ACW and that the South working on abolishing slavery almost right away with little friction from the southern population. As well I REALLY want to avoid the trope of the Union becoming ridiculously poor and even more racist than in OTL.

Now I understand that the CSA made a big deal about treating *most* Natives tribes in the south well and I'm wondering how this could play out in the long run. Also with Lincoln still in the White house how will black suffrage be affected in the Union? As well with a longer Civil War I expect some officially trained southern black troops will be able to see battle and gain a good reputation. I don't expect this to get ride of the traditional belief in the superiority of white citizens in a European style society, but I do think that things will be better off for veteran black soldiers and their families in that long run and I'd like to know if anybody else has some ideas about this.

PS: Another idea that I have had in mind is making two timelines based around the same PODs but have one with ASBs and update them side by side, but I think I would definitely need a coauthor to do that so if anyone like the idea of working on a TL involving the ACW with steam punk and . . . wait for it . . . dinosaurs!!! please offer. Thank you.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Higher death toll is easy. The longer the war, the more people that die. So anything that takes the war deep in 1866 works. Also, remember the four horsemen travel together for a reason. Add a typhus, flu or small Pox, you will have plenty of dead.

To avoid the USA attacking Canada, you should avoid direct UK intervention in the war. If the UK comes into the war, the Union will have a big axe to grind with the UK, and come the next big weakness of the UK (WW1 in OTL), the Union will attack Canada. Not if, will. And they might not wait that long. It is easy for me Imagining the USA having a 2 million man army in the 1880's counting reserves, and some President who is likely to lose the next election provoking a war with the UK. There will be an interesting issue with the USA having a large French or German size army, and the ever present temptation to use it.

The CSA, which is clearly weaker than the USA, will seek defensive alliances, first with anyone who helped them in the war, second with anyone who will ally with them. IMO, a CSA/USA splits means both sides move into the alliance system. You can write this in many ways, but it will happen.

The USA will remain wealthy, the main change will be the USA will have a much bigger army.

The Indians are easy. Oklahoma and Arizona will be Indian states, run by Indians, with a huge dose of states rights.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
Moved from another thread.

I'd like to do a longer ACW ATL too but need some help also since I know it would take alot of work. I started another thread earlier looking for help but nobody has posted anything yet. If you'd like to look at it and offer me some aid I'd really appreciate it.https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=230143

One POD that was suggested too me before was to have the Confederates win a few more victories in the west during 1864. The best that I can think of his haveing a CS victory at Spring Hill due to Cleburne convincing his supperiors to let him go after the fleeting Union troops instead of letting them escape. I hope that this might prevent the disaster at Franklin, keep Cleburne alive, and help the South win further battles in the west and have the success bleed over into Virginia.


The USA Navy, like the USA Army, was dominated by Southern officers. IOTL, they sailed the ships to Northern ports, resigned their commissions, and went to the south to be largely unimportant in the war.

An easy POD, is the ships lead by Southern Captains, sail to southern ports, and send the Yankees north. Then the south will have a more equal Navy, and the blockade will not work so well. You might even have some interesting CSA raids on Northern ports, for example, the burning of Martha Vineyard, a shelling of Long Island, etc.

Mobilization can also be your friend. Have a couple of Union states spend a few months longer debating what to do, so there are less Union troops in 1861, and the CSA has more time to get organized. Maybe the TN operations are cancelled in 1861 due to lack of troops.

People seem to focus a lot on one POD, but often a few, smaller, related POD's work.

People told me that U-boats winning WW1 was not doable, was ASB. So I went for my first POD in about 1900. A fairly small budget change (POD 1) and a new leader Prince Henry (POD2). Then there are what I call butterflies, but the basic writing plan was:

1) Setup sub bases in Colonies (Butterfly 1)
2) Major Success in first month of war (Butterfly 2)
3) Having a merchant raiding plan besides unrestricted (Butterfly 3)
4) Italy stays out of war (This is what really lets the CP win)
5) USA is more neutral (Helps a lot)

If I had just went to July 1914, and had sub attack in wolfpacks and the leaders just know how to handle merchant raiding, it would have been moved to ASB.

Basically, the more ASB an event you want, the farther back in time you need to go. So if you POD is not working in 1864, try 1861, then try 1856. Just watch for butterflies on earlier POD. And often it is easier to have a small person do a change, not the national leader. For example, what if someone in the south was working on Iron clad designs in New Orleans in the 1850's, and so when the war comes, there are a couple of prototypes lying around, and a blueprints, and small dock to build more?
 
Thank you Blondie that actually gives me a few ideas.:)

Also after hearing form a few others the possibility of the Confederacy surviving and attaining independence during a 2nd Lincoln presidency are slim. So the next best thing I can think of to get the results I want is to figure out what politicians would carry out the events I'd like if they were elected and what PODs to create to get them to that point. The main things I need to find in a candidate are someone who will continue with black suffrage even after the loss of the southern states, will continue the war after being elected but then offer peace at some point (kinda like an 1800s Nixon;)), and will try to set up friendly relations with the CSA so as to prevent further wars. I actually am a little convinced by some that race relations in the USA would improve more if the CSA leaves because spiteful US politicians will want to separate themselves further from their southern neighbors.

Something else that I wanted to handle as well is keeping Sherman's March in my TL because I view it as a great military achievement that could be used later on in the TL for someone else to add to their strategy. Sadly this would help crush any chances of the CSA leaving. So the best I could think of to get "the best of both worlds" is to have Sherman do his March but get repelled at some point. The best I can think of is maybe by him not capturing Atlanta since I don't now how he could be stopped otherwise. Though this still may not be attainable since most people say the latest the CSA could change things towards a victory is spring 1864 so that makes me worry about being able to make a longer Civil War.


Do you have any ideas about what PODs I could set up to achieve this or at least what things I should study to find a good POD? Thanks again.
 
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