Hellenized Northern India

How can we get at least northern India to not only become Hellenized, but to stay Hellenized? And I have already written Alexander the Great off, so if there any other suggestions, I am all ears.
 
Bactria-wank? With the White Huna being heavily influenced by their religion and practices, and then spreading this culture into modern day Pakistan and NW India.
Or, perhaps for some reason the Gupta's patronise Greco-Buddhism/a Vedic syncretism of Hellenic mythology instead of Bramanical Dharma, so instead of the Ramayana and the Mahabharata being used to fervent Gupta legitimacy, we have some of the Greek myths instead.
 
It was as Hellenized as it could get. You had Indo-Greek kingdoms outlasting the Diadochi states by several decades; Greek communities lasting a few centuries contributing to the arts, philosophy and military disproportionate to their meager numbers until they ultimately assimilated to the local population.
 
It was as Hellenized as it could get. You had Indo-Greek kingdoms outlasting the Diadochi states by several decades; Greek communities lasting a few centuries contributing to the arts, philosophy and military disproportionate to their meager numbers until they ultimately assimilated to the local population.

What's the evidence for this disproportionate impact? There's no Greek texts of Buddhism, for instance...
 

scholar

Banned
What's the evidence for this disproportionate impact? There's no Greek texts of Buddhism, for instance...
Greece and India have a number of hypothetical links to each other, which makes some people argue that each made substantial contributions to the other. Pythagoras is supposed to have learned Indian philosophy and mathematics, while the Indians in turn had their own understanding and development enhanced by the Greeks post Alexander.

Its mostly speculative, but it does have a number of proponents. It is somewhat similar to how there are a few scholars who stipulate that Jesus studied Buddhism in India and then started preaching it in Israel, though that one has far fewer adherents.
 
scholar, that's not what people mean when they mean 'Greek culture had a substantial impact on Northern India', and it's definitely not what Cuahtemoc meant. That whole 'Pythagoras' or 'Jesus in India' type stuff is generally kookery, at best hyper-speculative to the degree where the speculation is useless. What he's probably referring to is the large impact that Hellenistic style Greek art had on Northern India and the nearer regions of Central Asia. That by itself is pretty easy to evidence, there are major Buddhist sites across the former Kushan territories which bear the hallmarks of Greek religious imagery and Hellenistic era architecture, and the integration of originally Hellenistic elements into Northern India's art and architecture is likewise not hard to evidence.

No, there are no Greek Buddhist texts, though there are the inscriptions of Ashoka in Old Kandahar which have bilingual Greek/Aramaic versions and which translate some Buddhist concepts into Greek terminology, and Bactrian Buddhists were writing in the Bactrian language which was written using the Greek alphabet. However, that seems like a very oddly specific marker for 'disproportionate impact', are you aware how few primary sources are available for that period in Northern India and Central Asia's history? Considering that the general belief is that Greeks had 'disappeared' in the region by the 4th century AD at the latest, and how few they were, and how long it had been since they ruled anything, it would be deeply surprising to find almost any Greek language sources from India in that period whatsoever. We have barely any primary sources from the period when Greeks DID rule in Bactria and Northern India, we're mainly reliant on coins...

The one major Buddhist text that clearly involves Greeks is the Milinda Panha, and that is only preserved by Burmese and some Chinese Buddhists these days, it wouldn't have taken much for that to disappear in its entirety as well. The fact that it exists is still relevant to the discussion, however, since it presents a Greek King, either King Menander I or II, as being curious about Buddhism followed by becoming a major patron of it at a relatively early time. The fact that any Greek actually manages to become mentioned by name in a Pali Canon text is pretty disproportionate in its own right.

Would be nice if people actually did some research on Greek culture in Central Asia and North-Western India before commenting, rather than just relying on the most easily found internet resources or assuming their own lack of familiarity reflects a lack of evidence of any kind.
 

scholar

Banned
Would be nice if people actually did some research on Greek culture in Central Asia and North-Western India before commenting, rather than just relying on the most easily found internet resources or assuming their own lack of familiarity reflects a lack of evidence of any kind.
I am sure you were making a gut reaction to what you presumed was terrible ignorance, but I encourage you to take a closer look at my post.

"while the Indians in turn had their own understanding and development enhanced by the Greeks post Alexander."

I made indirect reference to Greeks ruling in and around India post Alexander. My response was short and devoid of many details because I was talking on my phone. As for the Jesus commentary, it was meant that to be similar to the Pythagoras question. In essence, I was talking to the influence on culture and philosophy, not simply geopolitics.

However, when people make arguments for long lasting importance to India, this is substantially harder to maintain. To what extent the Greeks actually had lasting impact, and to what extent the greeks simply faded into the background of Indian culture and were completely absorbed, is something that we have no clear answers for. As such: "Greece and India have a number of hypothetical links to each other, which makes some people argue that each made substantial contributions to the other." which makes it "mostly speculative, but it does have a number of proponents."

It may have been out of place to bring up the Pythagoras question, but it is not simply the realm of kookery, and does have a number of proponents in the academic profession. Jesus is far less accepted ("though that one has far fewer adherents"), but it was the nearest thing I could call on hand that was similar to it. I could have mentioned Laozi, and how some Chinese thought that when he went west, he became known as Buddha. That one is completely discredited though.
 

Ak-84

Banned
scholar, that's not what people mean when they mean 'Greek culture had a substantial impact on Northern India', and it's definitely not what Cuahtemoc meant. That whole 'Pythagoras' or 'Jesus in India' type stuff is generally kookery, at best hyper-speculative to the degree where the speculation is useless. What he's probably referring to is the large impact that Hellenistic style Greek art had on Northern India and the nearer regions of Central Asia. That by itself is pretty easy to evidence, there are major Buddhist sites across the former Kushan territories which bear the hallmarks of Greek religious imagery and Hellenistic era architecture, and the integration of originally Hellenistic elements into Northern India's art and architecture is likewise not hard to evidence.

No, there are no Greek Buddhist texts, though there are the inscriptions of Ashoka in Old Kandahar which have bilingual Greek/Aramaic versions and which translate some Buddhist concepts into Greek terminology, and Bactrian Buddhists were writing in the Bactrian language which was written using the Greek alphabet. However, that seems like a very oddly specific marker for 'disproportionate impact', are you aware how few primary sources are available for that period in Northern India and Central Asia's history? Considering that the general belief is that Greeks had 'disappeared' in the region by the 4th century AD at the latest, and how few they were, and how long it had been since they ruled anything, it would be deeply surprising to find almost any Greek language sources from India in that period whatsoever. We have barely any primary sources from the period when Greeks DID rule in Bactria and Northern India, we're mainly reliant on coins...

The one major Buddhist text that clearly involves Greeks is the Milinda Panha, and that is only preserved by Burmese and some Chinese Buddhists these days, it wouldn't have taken much for that to disappear in its entirety as well. The fact that it exists is still relevant to the discussion, however, since it presents a Greek King, either King Menander I or II, as being curious about Buddhism followed by becoming a major patron of it at a relatively early time. The fact that any Greek actually manages to become mentioned by name in a Pali Canon text is pretty disproportionate in its own right.

Would be nice if people actually did some research on Greek culture in Central Asia and North-Western India before commenting, rather than just relying on the most easily found internet resources or assuming their own lack of familiarity reflects a lack of evidence of any kind.

To elaborate. Greek setllements in the sub continent were mostly in what is now Pakistan (specifically the Khybar Pakhtunwkhwa, N Punjab and Islamabad region). This area then began a millennium and a half of being the road whereby people would invade India, the Kushans, Sakas, Parthians, Sassanids Arabs, Mongols, Tamerlane, Mughals.......

After the collapse of the Gandaharn civilisation in the early first millenium C.E,you had very little by the way of urban settlements in that region until the 20th (yes the 20th) century with first the British irrigation projects and later the creation of Pakistan.

There was a lot of Hellenization in the region, take this statue of Athena from Taxila for instance..

An excellent book in Greek gods in the East vide Google books.
 
look this books

The Greeks in Bactria and India. W. W. Tarn(1984)

The Indo-Greeks. A.K. Narain,(2003)

Hellenism in ancient India Gauranga Nath Banerjee,(1961).
 
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