Hellenistic India

[Flocculencio]

On Heraklid Marines

I'm actually thinking of writing a story set in this TL and I thought it might focus of the ways in which Heraklid marines ('nautika' is what Babelfish gives me as a translation of marines) become a system of warfare that supersedes the phalanx-based tactics of the Heraklid Army just as the Roman legions did in Europe.

Heraklid nautika could be armed with heavy short-hafted, wide bladed stabbing spears (if anyone could suggest a suitable grecian name for such a weapon I'd be grateful) and a hoplon. Possibly pila or plumbata along with tower shields might be adopted as well through later observation of Roman troops.

I'm thinking of setting the story in a Heraklid civil war in the late 1st C BC or early 1st C AD where one faction defeats the other through use of these troops.

 

[Forum Lurker]

There is one possibility for an effective true navy: adoption of Chinese shipbuilding methods. I believe that at this time, Chinese methods included both an early form of the junk sailplan and sufficiently sturdy construction to permit ocean-crossing; add to this the stone-throwing ballista, and you can build something which resembles in overall utility the galleons of the Age of Sail, albeit on a smaller scale. They're particularly useful against coastal pirates because of the high walls; a large vessel intended to carry many troops or a large supply of cargo may simply be too tall to effectively scale against competent opposition.

 

[Flocculencio]

There is one possibility for an effective true navy: adoption of Chinese shipbuilding methods. I believe that at this time, Chinese methods included both an early form of the junk sailplan and sufficiently sturdy construction to permit ocean-crossing; add to this the stone-throwing ballista, and you can build something which resembles in overall utility the galleons of the Age of Sail, albeit on a smaller scale. They're particularly useful against coastal pirates because of the high walls; a large vessel intended to carry many troops or a large supply of cargo may simply be too tall to effectively scale against competent opposition.

That's an excellent idea! Junk-style ships designed, in effect, as floating fortresses providing a weapons platform for ballistae and with a corvus for marines to storm enemy vessels.

 

[Norman]

I like the possibilities of the ATL being put forward. We know that Alexander did found a short lived Kingdom, which, had it been luckier and a bit more savy, might have survived just as outlined.

Further, given that Greek culture and Indian Culture were 2500 years closer to each other, there could have been exactly the melding of religion suggested.

It makes sense, and meets the ultimate test, it could have happened. I'll be watching it.

 

[Flocculencio]

I like the possibilities of the ATL being put forward. We know that Alexander did found a short lived Kingdom, which, had it been luckier and a bit more savy, might have survived just as outlined.

Further, given that Greek culture and Indian Culture were 2500 years closer to each other, there could have been exactly the melding of religion suggested.

It makes sense, and meets the ultimate test, it could have happened. I'll be watching it.

Well look out for the first installment either in a few hours or sometime tomorrow in the fiction forum. I just need to grab a bite to eat first.

It might be interesting to have the Heraklian fleet operate in the following manner: If fleets with marines are going to be patrolling the water of the East Indies, I suggest that this might develop into an annual expedition with a fleet sailing out across the Bay of Bengal in the winter monsoon, collecting tribute and seeing to pirates, requests for military support and the like, before sailing back with the summer monsoon. Two fleets could be detailed for this, each sailing out in alternate years while the other spends a year in 'downtime' handling local patrols and military needs, training and refitting. The major ports in SE Asia might boast Imperial establishments ('consulates' or 'residencies' if you will) with marine garrisons, Imperial Residents and facilities for resupplying the fleet.

 

[Rick Robinson]

The analysis of naval strategy as "taxi service" seems plausible - in point of fact, there's little reason for naval battles as such so long as they have a strategic naval monopoly.

I agree that the Heraklids have little reason to care that much about what goes on to the west. Even if, say an Alexandrian (rather than Roman) empire arises, dominant over the Mediterranean world, it's just too far away for it and Heraklid India to go straight at each other.

A somewhat similar situation applies in the other direction. China in this period was still in the period of Contending States. Moreover, IIRC, Chinese civilization was still largely confined to northern China, and only really spread southward during and after the Han era. So even a unified Chinese Empire is not in an in-your-face situation with Heraklid India.

The main military threat to the Heraklids is thus likely to be an internal one - the possibility of civil war within this large empire.

-- Rick

 

[Flocculencio]

The analysis of naval strategy as "taxi service" seems plausible - in point of fact, there's little reason for naval battles as such so long as they have a strategic naval monopoly.

I agree that the Heraklids have little reason to care that much about what goes on to the west. Even if, say an Alexandrian (rather than Roman) empire arises, dominant over the Mediterranean world, it's just too far away for it and Heraklid India to go straight at each other.

A somewhat similar situation applies in the other direction. China in this period was still in the period of Contending States. Moreover, IIRC, Chinese civilization was still largely confined to northern China, and only really spread southward during and after the Han era. So even a unified Chinese Empire is not in an in-your-face situation with Heraklid India.

The main military threat to the Heraklids is thus likely to be an internal one - the possibility of civil war within this large empire.

-- Rick

Plus with China there are few real flashpoints- they've got the Himalayas between them and Heraklid territory. Any combat with the west is largely going to be in the form of border skirmishes with the Selucids (or whoever takes control of Persia. In any case, the Heraklids wouldn't have any pressing reasons to push beyond the Khyber Pass. India has everything necessary and they can make far more profit through their spice monopoly.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

It would be interesting to see the Selucids expand further into Central Asia- in TTL, they'd have a very great interest in attempting to take control of the overland trading routes to China since Heraklid India has a stranglehold on the maritime route. At the same time, with tributary kingdoms to worry about in S-E Asia, the seaborne China trade and the Spice trade, I could envision the Heraklids not expanding beyond the Khyber into Central Asia directly but rather playing a BC version of the Great Game with the Selucids. It would be quite cool- danger and derring-do in Central Asia as the agents of the Shahanshah battle it out with those of the Maharaja.

I think Central Asia is more or less hopeless, given the endless series of gigantic nomadic invasions that pass through. I doubt you would see more than an extremely transient Selucid presence in the region if they had attempted one.

 

[Faeelin]

I think Central Asia is more or less hopeless, given the endless series of gigantic nomadic invasions that pass through. I doubt you would see more than an extremely transient Selucid presence in the region if they had attempted one.

I wasn't aware you felt that strongly about it.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

You absolutely should.

I'm actually thinking of writing a story set in this TL and I thought it might focus of the ways in which Heraklid marines ('nautika' is what Babelfish gives me as a translation of marines) become a system of warfare that supersedes the phalanx-based tactics of the Heraklid Army just as the Roman legions did in Europe.

Heraklid nautika could be armed with heavy short-hafted, wide bladed stabbing spears (if anyone could suggest a suitable grecian name for such a weapon I'd be grateful) and a hoplon. Possibly pila or plumbata along with tower shields might be adopted as well through later observation of Roman troops.

I'm thinking of setting the story in a Heraklid civil war in the late 1st C BC or early 1st C AD where one faction defeats the other through use of these troops.

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

I wasn't aware you felt that strongly about it.

I'll smack you.

 

[Faeelin]

Not the same. Antiochus attempted to prevent any Jewish worship at all. If the Greeks attempted to completely suppress all Hindu worship, desecrating sacred sites and forcing the Indians to worship the Heraclid king as an incarnation of Zeus, the Hindus would naturally rise up in revolt and annihilate their oppressors. If, on the other hand, the only thing the Greeks do to cut into the caste system is to ignore caste distinctions in their employment, and not enforce any laws regarding them (and punish those who engage in vigilantism), that may not be nearly as poorly-received.

Of course, given the hostile attitude the Yavanas received from the Brahmins, it's not surprising that so many of them converted to Buddhism. It's a fairly important theme in ancient Indian literature, as evinced by a series of plays which involve Brahmins performing sacrifices to the gods, and Yavanas trying to stop them.

 

[Hermanubis]

('nautika' is what Babelfish gives me as a translation of marines) .

… but keep in mind that Modern Greek is a lot different from ancient Greek…

 

[Flocculencio]

… but keep in mind that Modern Greek is a lot different from ancient Greek…

Yeah but I've got to make do- anyway it looks nicer than using too many modern English terms like "marine corps".

I think Central Asia is more or less hopeless, given the endless series of gigantic nomadic invasions that pass through. I doubt you would see more than an extremely transient Selucid presence in the region if they had attempted one.

Possibly Great Game style political jockeying between the Selucids and the Heraklids would be more logical than direct control then.

 

[Historico]

Interesting concept Flocculencio, It seems to be going in an right direction but is the Heraklid India based on an General named Herakles in Alexander's army in OTL?

 

[Flocculencio]

Not to my knowledge I needed a general to seize control of India so I just thought of Greek names at random and thought Herakles had a nice ring to it. I know it's not as rigourous or as plausible as many of the concepts here but now I'm just using it as a base for the project I'm working on over on the fiction forum.

BTW does onyone know what the Greeks called the Indians? I'm probably going with Indoi (which is what Babelfish gives me as the modern Greek equivalent) but if anyone does actually know a historically accurate term that would be cool.

 

[Rick Robinson]

I needed a general to seize control of India so I just thought of Greek names at random and thought Herakles had a nice ring to it.

I would change it to Heraklios (like the Byzantine emperor). A Greek could certainly have that name, while I don't think one would actually be named Herakles. I think that "Herakleid" would be the word used for the dynasty he founds, etc.

-- Rick

 

[Leo Caesius]

Herodotos, at least, refers to them as Hindoi generically, but tends to refer to tribes outside of the Indus River Valley by different tribal names.

Those of the South of India (your peeps) are often called "Eastern Aethiopians" (meaning those with "sun-burnt faces").

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

One point that I think needs to be made here is that there is little chance of their being any lasting Hellenistic bent to an Indian civilization without a regular and established line of communication to the mainstream of the Hellenistic world.

For instance, "Russia" was a Scandinavian polity before it's center of gravity was moved from Novgorod to Kiev, which caused it to Slavicize and be drawn into the Byzantine orbit.

 

[Faeelin]

One point that I think needs to be made here is that there is little chance of their being any lasting Hellenistic bent to an Indian civilization without a regular and established line of communication to the mainstream of the Hellenistic world.

For instance, "Russia" was a Scandinavian polity before it's center of gravity was moved from Novgorod to Kiev, which caused it to Slavicize and be drawn into the Byzantine orbit.

True. You'd need to keep the Seleucids around, or ensure that there are enough maritime contacts so that the Seleucids are no longer necessary.