Hellenised Italy?

[tuareg109]

And do not underestimate the attractiveness of Greek culture in the eyes of Italics.

Mmm, not particularly true. Before the conquest of Magna Grecia there was a certain Grecophobia (in Rome, at least) running around. Not that people actively hated Greeks; it was just frowned upon to wear Greek clothes and affect Greek styles. It was after the Tarentine and Pyrrhic Wars that the Romans began to admire Greek culture--possibly because at that point it didn't stand a chance of drowning their own...which it ironically did, almost a thousand years later.

 

[Mixxer5]

Mmm, not particularly true. Before the conquest of Magna Grecia there was a certain Grecophobia (in Rome, at least) running around. Not that people actively hated Greeks; it was just frowned upon to wear Greek clothes and affect Greek styles. It was after the Tarentine and Pyrrhic Wars that the Romans began to admire Greek culture--possibly because at that point it didn't stand a chance of drowning their own...which it ironically did, almost a thousand years later.

Even after Tarentum Romans weren't always very... close with Greeks. As far as I remember some kind of light aversion toward Greeks was present until Empire has been proclaimed.

 

[de Ptysz]

I wasn't referring only to Romans, in general other Italics and Etruscans (especially their social elites), although waging wars against Magna Grecia, were likely to adopt many elements of Greek culture. So if the Central Italy would be conquered by a Hellenistic ruler I suspect a quick hellenisation of elites and later complex assimilation of the entire society.

 

[Mixxer5]

I wasn't referring only to Romans, in general other Italics and Etruscans (especially their social elites), although waging wars against Magna Grecia, were likely to adopt many elements of Greek culture. So if the Central Italy would be conquered by a Hellenistic ruler I suspect a quick hellenisation of elites and later complex assimilation of the entire society.

Well- it actually happened in otl- after all, Roman culture absorbed almost all Greek culture. It was just slightly different in terms of government. What You actually want to do is just changing Latin language to Greek. Obviously Greeks living in central Italy will be still different in some ways from their (original) counterparts living in Greece.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Mmm, not particularly true. Before the conquest of Magna Grecia there was a certain Grecophobia (in Rome, at least) running around. Not that people actively hated Greeks; it was just frowned upon to wear Greek clothes and affect Greek styles. It was after the Tarentine and Pyrrhic Wars that the Romans began to admire Greek culture--possibly because at that point it didn't stand a chance of drowning their own...which it ironically did, almost a thousand years later.

That's by no means certain. Remember we have no surviving historical sources for the Roman Republic prior to the middle of the second century BC, and by this point writers were already lamenting the supposed "decline" of the state brought about by abandoning traditional habits. Stating that the "better" Romans of a previous generation had frowned on Greek habits was a way of making a rhetorical point.

 

[Arafeel]

That's by no means certain. Remember we have no surviving historical sources for the Roman Republic prior to the middle of the second century BC, and by this point writers were already lamenting the supposed "decline" of the state brought about by abandoning traditional habits. Stating that the "better" Romans of a previous generation had frowned on Greek habits was a way of making a rhetorical point.

I does mean that certain Roman writers believed that excess, moral decline etc were a product of an foreign, corrupting culture. This is really noting else that xenophobia and reactionary political views. But they were held, we also had the consumption laws that were passed, and the less than accepting views on Sulla and Lucullus during their retirement, if the sources are to be believed.

 

[tuareg109]

Well- it actually happened in otl- after all, Roman culture absorbed almost all Greek culture. It was just slightly different in terms of government. What You actually want to do is just changing Latin language to Greek. Obviously Greeks living in central Italy will be still different in some ways from their (original) counterparts living in Greece.

Whoah, what? Do people really still believe this?

I'll agree with you if you say that Rome adopted Greek culture...in the AD 600's. And Roman government was radically different than any kind of Greek--or other, for that matter--system that had ever been created, until the Dominate.

If Rome adopted almost all Greek culture, then how could Greek culture have been different from or surpassed Roman culture?

 

[Mixxer5]

Whoah, what? Do people really still believe this?

I'll agree with you if you say that Rome adopted Greek culture...in the AD 600's. And Roman government was radically different than any kind of Greek--or other, for that matter--system that had ever been created, until the Dominate.

If Rome adopted almost all Greek culture, then how could Greek culture have been different from or surpassed Roman culture?

Religion, educational system, philosophy... I can't see how Greeks were too different from Romans.

 

[Basileus Giorgios]

Religion, educational system, philosophy... I can't see how Greeks were too different from Romans.

Agreed. I've always thought that Rome was the last and greatest of Alexander's Hellenistic Successor States. The Ptolemies, Bactrians, Spartans and Bosporans were all pretty different, but they were all part of this cultural group. So too was Rome.

 

[tuareg109]

Religion, educational system, philosophy... I can't see how Greeks were too different from Romans.

The Roman state religion did feature the Greek pantheon of 12 gods with different names, but you must remember that this is true of all Indo-European gods. Zeus = Jupiter = Thor [Dzeu-Pator -- "Sky Father"] Now are you going to claim that Thor was borrowed from the Greeks as well?
Then there are the multitude of Roman numina, the faceless, characterless gods of the Etruscans and the Latins; these didn't have human faces and bickering human relationships, and the most solemn oaths were sworn on them. Is there anything like that in Greek culture? Hell, when an official declaration of war was issued it was in the Temple of Bellona (chthonic Italian/Roman goddess), and not the Temple of Mars.
Other than the 12 Olympians, no Roman gods had a family or an anthropomorphic form or history.
Then there were the Lares, the guardian-gods (of the hearth, fields, boundaries, doorways, crossroads). The Lares Penates guarded the Roman home and its walls.
The ritual of Evocatio was thoroughly Roman in character. Who has ever heard of a Greek general literally sacrificing himself in battle, that his army may be victorious?
The Ludi Romani and the Lupercalia, and many others, were purely Roman/Italian festivals and events.

It is indeed true that Romans took much from Greek education after the conquests of Macedonia and Greece. At the highest levels, though, Greek students went on to study philosophy and ethics, while Roman students studied law and oratory--two more practically useful subjects, wouldn't you say?

I'll concede on philosophy. That is basically just sitting around and doing nothing, which everybody is pretty similar at.

@Basileus Giorgios How can you even say that? Rome was never conquered during the entire ancient time period, and Romans did not speak Greek. It was 150 or 200 years after the Roman Empire fell that the Byzantines made Greek the official language, which tells you how well-grounded Latin was, especially in the West.

Furthermore, the Spartans too weren't a Hellenistic state. Alexander never even conquered them, and they didn't accept eastern cultures--and remained a backwater, as they had been since Corinth's hegemony, until Rome conquered them.

 

[Mixxer5]

Agreed. I've always thought that Rome was the last and greatest of Alexander's Hellenistic Successor States. The Ptolemies, Bactrians, Spartans and Bosporans were all pretty different, but they were all part of this cultural group. So too was Rome.

For me Romans were refugees of Troy (as one of legends stated), rather than heirs of Alexander, but I see Your point

The Roman state religion did feature the Greek pantheon of 12 gods with different names, but you must remember that this is true of all Indo-European gods. Zeus = Jupiter = Thor [Dzeu-Pator -- "Sky Father"] Now are you going to claim that Thor was borrowed from the Greeks as well?
Then there are the multitude of Roman numina, the faceless, characterless gods of the Etruscans and the Latins; these didn't have human faces and bickering human relationships, and the most solemn oaths were sworn on them. Is there anything like that in Greek culture? Hell, when an official declaration of war was issued it was in the Temple of Bellona (chthonic Italian/Roman goddess), and not the Temple of Mars.
Other than the 12 Olympians, no Roman gods had a family or an anthropomorphic form or history.
Then there were the Lares, the guardian-gods (of the hearth, fields, boundaries, doorways, crossroads). The Lares Penates guarded the Roman home and its walls.
The ritual of Evocatio was thoroughly Roman in character. Who has ever heard of a Greek general literally sacrificing himself in battle, that his army may be victorious?
The Ludi Romani and the Lupercalia, and many others, were purely Roman/Italian festivals and events.

It is indeed true that Romans took much from Greek education after the conquests of Macedonia and Greece. At the highest levels, though, Greek students went on to study philosophy and ethics, while Roman students studied law and oratory--two more practically useful subjects, wouldn't you say?

I'll concede on philosophy. That is basically just sitting around and doing nothing, which everybody is pretty similar at.

Philosophy: that's interesting point of view... Did Norse/Saxons were stoic or cynics then? Because as far as I can tell, philosophy held quite important place among Romans (and Greeks too) during late republic era and early empire.

Religion: did I said that Romans simply took Greek religion and changed names only? But base of their beliefs was the same and I don't recall any Greeks having problem with praying to Roman gods instead of Greek ones... Because they were more or less same ones. Hell- Vesta/Hestia was held in highest regards for very long time- until Theodosius the Great.

Finally, Romans utilized some Greek law- for example, as I recall, they did used similar slavery system (possibility to buy own freedom, retaining- limited- freedoms). Even Roman government looks a bit like extension of polis system. After all even during empire period (early), RE was highly decentralized.

Now, I'm not saying that Romans were as much Greeks as Greeks in today Greece. But as Basileus Giorgios said- they were part on one huge cultural group. That's the reason why there were uprising among conquered Celts and Germans, but East (apart from tax revolts and usurpers) was calm.

 

[tuareg109]

Philosophy: that's interesting point of view... Did Norse/Saxons were stoic or cynics then? Because as far as I can tell, philosophy held quite important place among Romans (and Greeks too) during late republic era and early empire.

Religion: did I said that Romans simply took Greek religion and changed names only? But base of their beliefs was the same and I don't recall any Greeks having problem with praying to Roman gods instead of Greek ones... Because they were more or less same ones. Hell- Vesta/Hestia was held in highest regards for very long time- until Theodosius the Great.

Finally, Romans utilized some Greek law- for example, as I recall, they did used similar slavery system (possibility to buy own freedom, retaining- limited- freedoms). Even Roman government looks a bit like extension of polis system. After all even during empire period (early), RE was highly decentralized.

Now, I'm not saying that Romans were as much Greeks as Greeks in today Greece. But as Basileus Giorgios said- they were part on one huge cultural group. That's the reason why there were uprising among conquered Celts and Germans, but East (apart from tax revolts and usurpers) was calm.

Norse and Saxon philosophy was mostly in their religion.

The base of all European peoples' beliefs are the same, you're just admitting my point. Just because the base is the same doesn't mean that the gods were borrowed/stolen/came from Greeks. The 12 Roman "Olympians" came from the Etruscans, and the Numina and Lares and Evocatio all came from Italian chthonic religions.

The basis for Roman law and the trial process is in the Twelve Tables, a compilation of laws created by the Decemviri in 451 and 450 BC, and had its influence from ancient Etruscan laws, because Rome was a small city-state back then and had almost all of its influence from the Etruscans.
The idea of at least two men governing together in one office, to prevent abuse of powers, is a purely and originally Roman idea; the government of Rome was unique.
The slavery system might have been similar...but it was so all over the Mediterranean. Slaves could buy their freedom since the earliest days of slavery. However a slave, once freed, became a Roman citizen, and client to his former master. did a freedman immediately become a citizen of his polis in Greece?

If the Greeks weren't too different from the Romans, maybe it was Greece that ended up absorbing much of Roman culture and society?

Lastly, the Greeks rarely revolted because there was nothing there. After two centuries of mismanagement and rape by the Diadochi, Greece was a few smallish cities with tracts of village and woodland far between. The Romans took over and mismanaged it until the Imperial system came into place, and Greece and Macedonia benefited greatly from the trade of goods and people. And that's how the East became a group of the very richest provinces.
The conquered Celts and Germans rarely rose either; it was tribes that had had minimal contact, or had nominally submitted, that had trouble.