Helicopters in WW2

Ok before I pose this question , I realise that this is ASB , as the technology isn’t likely to be available in the time period, I was wondering what tactical changes or doctrinal changes in wallied operations if in say mid 43, you had a general use of helicopters, i.e. general utility helicopters capable of carry squads of say 8 soldiers, I was wondering how it might have changed something like market garden , would it have made the job of seizing the bridges easier by allowing LZ’s closer to the bridges. What about in the pacific, could we see the first ideas of vertical envelopment forged in the jungles of Iowa Jima or Saipan?

I’ll re-iterate I know the PODs required are impossible, the other way to phrase the question is, if a WW2 type conventional war happened in western Europe/ Pacific Theatre in say 1953 , what effect would helicopters have on the tactics used by the western forces have? See above for the scenarios I have in mind

Mods feel free to punt this to ASB forum, if you feel it deserves to be there.
 
I remember some film (one of those late 60s Alistair McClean adaptations, or something) in which a Nazi officer arrives at a fortress by helicopter.
 
I thought that Germany, Britain and the US had helicopters in WW2. The capabilities of these early carft was such that they were not used in active combat. Anyone know if my old-man's-memory is correct?
 
I remember some film (one of those late 60s Alistair McClean adaptations, or something) in which a Nazi officer arrives at a fortress by helicopter.

It was 'Into the Eagles nest' IIRC.

(Assuming that turbo-shaft engines are developed and are abundant, without this no useful helicopters are possible) Conditions prevailing in combat and FEBA during WW2 would be extremely dangerous to helicopters up to Hind or Apache. Almost all WW2 AA weaponry was able to knock out Hip-E or Huey or even Blackhawk out of air without too much trouble. Where helicopters could come in would be in MEDEVAC missions, fast transport of mobile units as reinforcements. Using it in combat missions would require development of an array of weapons that could be used in stand off role.

In that sense the tactics will probably change little. Perhaps it would be easier to infiltrate SpecOps teams with helicopters flying NoE (if possible without sophisticated equipment that choppers use today, i.e. Pave Low III).
 
Actually, helicopters were used to a limited degree in WWII, so it's not ASB at all. The Sikorsky R-4 Hoverfly was used for rescuing Allied soldiers in the jungles of Burma and in Alaska (probably during the battles on the Aleutian islands). The Flettner FI 282 was used by the Germans for scouting and artillery spotting, particularly around the Mediterranean. The Nazis considered converting it for combat use. So not only did is it possible, it happened. Just to a limited degree.
 
Thanks for the reponses so far, I was aware of the R4 and the german machines actually in WW2, but I was looking more at the development the air assualt type tactics and how that might effect battles in WW2.

If helicopters are using for the job of CASEVAC, behind the lines light utilty, could we see them used to haul guns around the battlefield? and on that note could we see them on carriers in the plane guard role, light ASW role? thereby freeing up fixed wind ASW assets to work further out from the carrier?
 
I'm a bit surprised no-one's mentioned it before me, but I think the obvious answer is, look at how they were used in Korea - medevac, SAR. Arnhem with helicopters would have changed things, but I don't think significantly- SS still training in the area, radio issues etc.

Now having them around in 1940 could have made things interesting- German "Air Cav" style operations at Eben Emael, maybe commando raids if increased frequency across the Channel.

I think the problem is not just the technology but its maturity- not just having the gear but the doctrine to use it, and if this is the first major war involving helicopters there's going to be a LOT of trial and error on all sides.
 
even 50's style helicopters would be really dangerous to use in ww2 for insertion/supply in forward areas

ww2 was a period of real line divisions which had their own AA battalions; to say nothing of corp and army level AA assets... the average german panzer division had 40-60 flak guns of varrying calibers including upwards of 36 of the vaunted 88mm gun.... being in a 50's rickety helicopter and being hit by 37mm or 88mm fire is a death sentence
 
While correct that helicopters are extremely vulnerable to AA fire, so were the light fixed wing aircraft of the era. The L-4 Grasshopper which was a militarized Piper Cub was often seen over the front lines yet shooting at one was considered a nearly suicidal act. This was largely due to the likely 155mm response. Low flying utility aircraft were generally left alone.

It was happenstance that prevented helicopters from being used in in the European theater. They were available from mid 1944, other things took priority. It they had been ready a couple years earlier its easy to see ASW and SAR roles coming into play. A helicopter can operate from the decks of ships were their fixed wing counterparts cannot.
 
A workable ASW Helicoptor massively reduces the requirements for escort carriers if any merchant ship can be modified with a flying off deck and minimal support equipment.
 
Fighter threat

There is nothing as dangerous to an helicopter as a WW2 era fighter. Attack helicopters come of age in the 70 because fighters had vacated the tree top combat area. The FW190, Yak3, typhoon, P47,etc would have massacred any heli they met, and in WW2 use of helix would have to be restricted to areas were air superiority was total.
 
If the Allies hadn't bombed the Focke-Agelis factory, the Germans would have used a lot more

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It was 'Into the Eagles nest' IIRC.

(Assuming that turbo-shaft engines are developed and are abundant, without this no useful helicopters are possible) Conditions prevailing in combat and FEBA during WW2 would be extremely dangerous to helicopters up to Hind or Apache. Almost all WW2 AA weaponry was able to knock out Hip-E or Huey or even Blackhawk out of air without too much trouble. Where helicopters could come in would be in MEDEVAC missions, fast transport of mobile units as reinforcements. Using it in combat missions would require development of an array of weapons that could be used in stand off role.

In that sense the tactics will probably change little. Perhaps it would be easier to infiltrate SpecOps teams with helicopters flying NoE (if possible without sophisticated equipment that choppers use today, i.e. Pave Low III).

Where Eagles Dare. :)

As to the topic at hand, IIRC, the Mussolini rescue op. was originally supposed to be done with helicopters, but a crash forced them to find another way.
 
Air assault and attack helicopters would require air superiority or surprise to be operated effectively,as WWII era fighters are their worst enemy (as someone above me stated). Also, there would have to be a lot of fighting in areas hard to reach by foot/vehicle. If helicopters could be developed for air assault roles by the 1940s, then they'd likely see a lot of action in the Pacific theatre.
 
I knew there were some Eagles in the title. Thats what you get if you watch the movie with local translation. :eek:
 
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