Heinkel He 177 Germany's succesful longrange bomber

[Crowbar Six]

Agree... the push-pull arrangement could've been made to work; alternately, just design it as a conventional four right from the beginning. It wasn't a bad airframe design.
Oh, and drop the loony dive-bombing requirement and stick a tailgunner position where the stupid dive brake was...
Problem was that most strategic-bombing thinking died with Wever, and no one stepped up to take his place. For all of Goering's pretensions, the Luftwaffe continued to be viewed as basically an adjunct to the Heer....

The RAF had one of these after the war with the Enemy Aircraft Flight at Boscombe Down. They sent it to RAF St Athan for storage in the late 1940's, they decided to hand it over to a Museum in the mid-50's but couldn't find it! It seems someone decided to steal it and turn it into scrap, they never found out who did it.

The French operated some of these after the war.

 

[Aghasverov]

The RAF had one of these after the war with the Enemy Aircraft Flight at Boscombe Down. They sent it to RAF St Athan for storage in the late 1940's, they decided to hand it over to a Museum in the mid-50's but couldn't find it! It seems someone decided to steal it and turn it into scrap, they never found out who did it.

The French operated some of these after the war.

The French also completed the 2 high-altitude, long-range He 274 prototypes (which did have 4 separate nacelles) after the war, and used them for a while.

 

[thaddeus]

the LRMP role would be a notable change, the LW had some initial success with the FW-200 but there were few evolutionary changes and quite a gap until (the very few) JU-290s appeared.

the arrival of the HE-177 would free the FW-200s to be used as transports (save them to be used as transports as so many were lost)

This is a great idea. But the Germans were progressively declining in their ability to execute great ideas. The numbers of VLR patrol planes had to do with poor cooperation and joint strategy between the Navy & Air Force. Replacing 100 FW200 with 100 He177 will be better, but not so much that it changes the Battle of the Atlantic.

The He 177 is most well known of the use of the glide bombs on naval targets. However it was the East Front were it was mostly used as bomber on long ranges. The purpose of the He177 was to deliver bomb loads at a lager distance than the He 111 or other German bombers of simmilar class could do. In other words long range strategical bombing.
So a production version of the He177, with four separate engines, which would solve the major flaw in the desing, (and skipping the dive bomb capacity) Would it have some effect on the course of battle at the East front.

there was a huge gap between the withdrawal of the FW-200s and the use of HE-177s to attack shipping, and even then they were cautious about using the latter due to reliability (IIRC), that was the timeframe I was speculating on.

if there are not the historical teething issues, the HE-177 could arrive in numbers during 1942, if the LW restricts its use to their own operations on the Eastern Front (likely scenario?) maybe it's possible the KM could inherit some of the other types?

(a brief pause to consider that there were over 1,000 of the 177s built historically, and not 4,000 but ??? something like 6,000 - 8,000 engines used, so a huge "injection" of aircraft and engines into the LW)

Heinkel itself could have repurposed the HE-111 as a transport, if the Zwilling twin fuselage version conceived, it could be a perfect LRMP aircraft (considered historically for recon role)

 

[Bougnas]

I must admit, the best reason to get more He 177s early and preferably the conventional quad-engine version is the aesthetics. Early German bombers are UGLY.

 

[Crowbar Six]

there was a huge gap between the withdrawal of the FW-200s and the use of HE-177s to attack shipping, and even then they were cautious about using the latter due to reliability (IIRC), that was the timeframe I was speculating on.

if there are not the historical teething issues, the HE-177 could arrive in numbers during 1942, if the LW restricts its use to their own operations on the Eastern Front (likely scenario?) maybe it's possible the KM could inherit some of the other types?

(a brief pause to consider that there were over 1,000 of the 177s built historically, and not 4,000 but ??? something like 6,000 - 8,000 engines used, so a huge "injection" of aircraft and engines into the LW)

Heinkel itself could have repurposed the HE-111 as a transport, if the Zwilling twin fuselage version conceived, it could be a perfect LRMP aircraft (considered historically for recon role)

The FW200's were extremely fragile and a lot were lost in landing accidents when they were damaged beyond repair in heavy landings iirc. The issue with using them as LRMP's is that the number of MAC's and Escort Carriers started to increase in late 1942-43 and they would get slaughtered in the Atlantic outside of figher range.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Heinkel itself could have repurposed the HE-111 as a transport, if the Zwilling twin fuselage version conceived, it could be a perfect LRMP aircraft (considered historically for recon role)

Early on the He111 had some utility as a maritime bomber, with the right tactics. The development of extreme low altitude tactics, skip bombing as it were, meant fewer bombs required per mission allowing the use of auxiliary fuel tanks to extend the range. Not a mid Atlantic weapon but they could be used on the Western and Northern Approaches, route of the Spitfire and Hurricane range.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

The French also completed the 2 high-altitude, long-range He 274 prototypes (which did have 4 separate nacelles) after the war, and used them for a while.

The French investigated reviving production of the Panther tank for their own use & passed on it. The Russians tested German jet engines and developed off British designs instead, The US passed on the V2 rocket & direct derivatives and told Braun to do new designs. Are there that many examples of nazi era technology being directly adopted by other nations?

 

[Aghasverov]

The French investigated reviving production of the Panther tank for their own use & passed on it. The Russians tested German jet engines and developed off British designs instead, The US passed on the V2 rocket & direct derivatives and told Braun to do new designs. Are there that many examples of nazi era technology being directly adopted by other nations?

Me 109 derivatives in Spain, Czechoslovakia and Israel.... lots and lots of small-arms...
JB-2 "Loon" was used by the US until around 1953...
Kurt Tank went on to design aircraft (with... mixed results) for Argentina and India.
As far as more advanced weaponry, I'm drawing a bit of a blank.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Me 109 derivatives in Spain, Czechoslovakia and Israel.... lots and lots of small-arms...

Yup. The Czechs built a slightly modernized 'Hetzer' through the 1940s. Spain manufactured a modified MG42. The late war submarine tech was adapted to the next generation of submarines in varying degrees.


The Loon looks like a Fi 103, but the engine and frame are not a direct copy, so a concept copy vs a direct copy.

The Brit TYPEX & US SIGABA were better encryption machines than the 1920s technology Enigma. Tho Enigma machines continued in use by a few nations. Afghanistans diplomatic corps was one user.

 

[Crowbar Six]

The French investigated reviving production of the Panther tank for their own use & passed on it. The Russians tested German jet engines and developed off British designs instead, The US passed on the V2 rocket & direct derivatives and told Braun to do new designs. Are there that many examples of nazi era technology being directly adopted by other nations?

The USN launched some V2's from a carrier and they built and built a small number Loon (V1) cruise missiles, they intended to use them in large numbers for the invasion of the Home Islands in 1946.

 

[Garrison]

It would certainly be better in terms of strategic bombing capability, but it has the same old problem, what else is the German aircraft industry not making to build them in serious numbers? And unless they really are planning to turn out thousands of them I doubt they can even match the performance of Bomber command, whose effective bombing later in the war benefitted from airborne radar and excellent pathfinder units.

 

[jsb]

Tho Enigma machines continued in use by a few nations. Afghanistans diplomatic corps was one user.

Did GB not helpfully sell a large number of surplus Enigma machines for some reason postwar to lots of minor nations?

 

[marathag]

Are there that many examples of nazi era technology being directly adopted by other nation

V-2 was the springboard for both US and USSR rocketry postwar, and the Soviets developed the Panzerfaust to RPG-2
MG-3 still has a roll in Western Militaries, away from Germany in a new Caliber.
The largest unchanged was for radio navigation, the Sonne network, called Consolan, in use thru the 1980s over the Atlantic .
Taken over by LORAN and GPS

 

[Post]

Could it have bombed Soviet industries in the Urals? With four engines it may have had the superiority of the Lancaster when compared to the Manchester, which was huge.

I have my doubts. Moscow-Ural is (a lot) further than London-Berlin, and the factories were beyond the Ural, and the front before Moscow, so it's even further than that.

Even if they could, it's a long way across hostile territory.

 

[ric350]

I have my doubts. Moscow-Ural is (a lot) further than London-Berlin, and the factories were beyond the Ural, and the front before Moscow, so it's even further than that.

Even with a range over 5000km, (and maybe shorten that a bit more with a four prop version), did they have to actually reach the factories? Wouldn’t destroying the rail lines have a similar effect? As I recall there weren’t that many of them going east/west, especially the further east of Moscow you went.

ric350

 

[pjmidd]

Even with a 6000 km range (and maybe shorten that a bit with a four prop version), did they have to actually reach the factories? Wouldn’t destroying the rail lines have a similar effect? As I recall there weren’t that many of them going east/west, especially the further east of Moscow you went.

ric350

Problem is unescorted bombers in daylight get slaughtered , Night bombers will have trouble finding a city let alone a railway ( hitting it would be even more fun ). If this were viable as a strategy ,Germans could have tried it OTL, they didn't even attempt it for the reasons stated.

 

[Garrison]

Problem is unescorted bombers in daylight get slaughtered , Night bombers will have trouble finding a city let alone a railway ( hitting it would be even more fun ). If this were viable as a strategy ,Germans could have tried it OTL, they didn't even attempt it for the reasons stated.

Especially when none of their navigational beams would work over those distances.

 

[ennobee]

The problem was not that Germany didn't have a long range heavy bomber. It's that they never developed a viable long range bombing doctrine. Or rather the long-range bombing doctrine they developed in the Spanish Civil War with the destruction of Guernica got thrown out of the window after it proved inadequate over London. And they never bothered to revise it with he lessons learned.

To make a point: from the original specs for the He.177, it was clear that the Luftwaffe strategists' idea of a strategic bomber was that of a Ju.88 with twice the range and twice the payload. And if they had the time to iron out the flaws in the design, they would probably have used the He.177 as a far-behind-enemy-lines Ju.88 style raider then as a B.24 style area bomber. (Bear in mind that the Allies had to develop their concept of strategic bombing from scratch as well, they just had no other options to reach Germany from England.) S

So having an operational He.177 is one thing, having enough of them to mount a significant bombing campaign against the British harbors / allied supply lines is another. Having the doctrine to use them against British harbors using the fighter defense and diversion tactics the allies had was something completely else.

I am afraid that lacking the last two elements the only thing an operational fleet of He.177 would be good for is to fly propaganda raids over Stalingrad.

 

[thaddeus]

there was a huge gap between the withdrawal of the FW-200s and the use of HE-177s to attack shipping, and even then they were cautious about using the latter due to reliability (IIRC), that was the timeframe I was speculating on.

The FW200's were extremely fragile and a lot were lost in landing accidents when they were damaged beyond repair in heavy landings iirc. The issue with using them as LRMP's is that the number of MAC's and Escort Carriers started to increase in late 1942-43 and they would get slaughtered in the Atlantic outside of figher range.

my point was they needed something other than the FW-200, sorry if that was confusing. we were discussing the effects (if any) of the HE-177 fully functional, my speculation it could have filled the "gap" historically when the Condors were withdrawn but nothing else ready.

the flaws of the FW-200 widely repeated however it was a good long range transport and might have matured into a recon bomber if some program had been initiated.

a five engine version was mooted, my own speculation is for a "little Fritz-X" guided munition as work on that started with SC-250 bombs of the type carried on the Condors. with guided bombs the aircraft would not have to go thru the maneuvers that caused problems.

 

[Riain]

It would certainly be better in terms of strategic bombing capability, but it has the same old problem, what else is the German aircraft industry not making to build them in serious numbers? And unless they really are planning to turn out thousands of them I doubt they can even match the performance of Bomber command, whose effective bombing later in the war benefitted from airborne radar and excellent pathfinder units.

He111s after 1942, that should get another 1000 4 engine He177s. Basically every bomber that wasn't a Ju88 after 1942 should be a 4 engine He177.

As for use, the idea isn't to match the combined bomber offensive, but rather how bombers were used in theatres like the Med and Pacific (not B28s against Japan). Against targets that are theatre-strategic, rear area cities and base areas rather than factories.