Hearts of Iron IV Thread

Hi @Gukpard my friend. I am going to copy and paste my post from the Paradox forums in which I criticized Paradox's work
Seeing the historical mistakes made in the Brazilian dev diary and in previous dlcs I knew this was coming, but I have to make a comment regardless.

In short, the common theme in the errors found in this focus tree is a lack of research (which is in part understandable thanks to the fact that the team behind HOI4 is a small one, but it isn't an excuse to avoid wanting to do research work specially if the premise of your product is that you are selling flavour). The broken Spanish found in the focus tree also doesn't present a good picture for Paradox, because if they can't bother to even check if the few Spaniish words they used are gramatically correct, what can we expect from the task of historical research which is a lot harder? I will proccede to comment the dev diary.
After Yrigoyen was removed from office, there was another election, this time putting Agustín Pedro Justo in power, supported by the newly created conservative party known as the Concordancia. This party was a union of various dissident sectors of other political parties that opposed the late Yrigoyen. It was Justo that orchestrated the practice of electoral fraud that became prevalent during the 1930s in Argentina; a case that would be attached to the legacy of the Concordancia.
The Concordancia wasn't a party, it is the name of the electoral alliance made by the UCRA (the radicals who opposed Yrigoyen's authoritarism), the PSI and the Conservatives. These groups remained as independent parties and this is important for Castillo later.
In the next part of the tree, things start to heat up for the Concordanica. Whilst you have the option to improve on Argentina’s damaged economy in the left hand branch, the historical player must then choose to elect Ramón Castillo. However, this creates tensions within the military factions in government, setting off a timed mission that spells an impending military coup. If the player does not take the appropriate actions, either by embracing the military factions or resisting them, then they will face a bloody civil war across Argentina.
Yeah Castillo wasn't elected. He was from the PDN (the conservatives) and he was choosen as the VP of Ortiz. When Ortiz died he took office. Unlike Ortiz, who wanted to reform away from electoral fraud at some point (a goal also shared by Justo and his protege Carlos Márquez, which at this point were in talks with the UCR about doing so). Castillo on the other hand came from the wing of the conservatives who wanted to return to the """glory""" days of the PAN, which is to say an aristocratic conservative """democracy""".

Ultimatelly while there were another reasons for the coup of 1943 (all the potential acceptable candidates (Justo) dying), the causus belli was that Castillo was going to move to a pro-Allies direction which was unaceptable for the GOU (Grupo de Oficiales Unidos) who were pro-German in the war and were made up of moderate nationalists who supported Germany (Farrell, Perón) or straight up fascists/nazis (Perlinger).

In short: the coup should happen as a reaction to the Argentine player seeking to join the allies.

Speaking of which, let’s talk about what happens if you have a clean election instead of one that is corrupt beyond belief. It’s time to see how Argentina fares as a true democracy.

At the beginning of the path, the ‘Infamous Decade’ national spirit becomes less of a hindrance as you are taking the actions necessary to avoid the rampant corruption that was rife within the Concordancia. With this in mind, you will then elect Marcelo T. De Alvear as the new leader of Argentina, placing the Radical Civic Union as the primary party in government. From here on out, you will be able to enact further social change to the country, building it up as a safe and comfortable home for all who live in Argentina.
Okay, for this section we have to face the problem that HOI4 is a sandbox and that one of the design philosofies is to allow countries to go for all the ideologies in their focus tree which is unrealistic. Here what it is described for the democratic branch is that the player just decides to run the 1937 elections in a clear manner which doesn't work, like at all. La Concordancia and the Patriotic Fraud were made to render a Yrigoyenist (UCR) victory impossible, like they wouldn't allow the chance for the UCR to win and if the radichetas managed to do it so a coup would be made.

A more sensible solution is to use the OTL plans. The UCR was in talk with Carlos Márquez (who was Justo's protege and the war minister at the time) to make a coup to restore democracy. These plans were nowhere because the nationalists in the army managed to purge Márquez using his corruption as an excuse, but Márquez coup succeding would allow for a democratic branch that made sence.

Fascist Branch

As we move back to the political branches, we will be taking a look at Argentina’s fascist tree. This explores the ‘what-if’ scenario in which Roberto Ortiz worked with the Argentine nationalists instead of focusing on trying to improve the Concordancia.

The fascist section starts wrong. Like fascism was somewhat relevant in Argentina and the 30s and it would go on to define the country post war:
Mussolini was the greatest man of our century, but he committed certain disastrous errors. I, who have the advantage of his precedent before me, shall follow in his footsteps but also avoid his errors.
-Juan Domingo Perón
but the way it comes about doesn't make any sense at all. To explain this we have to take into account the division that has always existed in the Argentine army: military liberals vs nationalists. The military liberals unlike what their name would seem to imply don't particulary like democracy (in fact the dictatorship of the 70s was formed by army liberals), but their objective is to basically maintain the status quo of the military being a separate body from the state, while the nationalists as their name indicates are nationalists and it is where all the "funny" (fascist) people fall in.

To illustrate this division: Uriburu (who did the 1930 coup) was from the nationalist wing of the army and he attempted to implement a corporatist/fascist project. Justo (from the army liberals) thought this was cringe and ultimately it was the reason for why he coupted him and created the Concordancia. The Concordancia is thus a regime backed by the army liberals, unlike the following regime of the June dictatorship (GOU) which was created by the nationalists. Thus it doesn't make any sense for Ortiz to want to work with the nationalists given that it doesn't only go against his political beliefs, but it also attacks the base of support of his regime.

In the 1910s - 1930s, a group known as the Ligas Patrióticas were operating in Argentina as a nationalistic paramilitary group. Eventually, they would be reformed into the Argentine Civic Legion and then the Unión Nacional Fascista. This tied with certain members of the Argentina government supporting the Axis in Europe, meant that there was plenty to draw on for an alternative history in which Argentina pursued fascism.

The idea of this path is for the player to bolster nationalist spirit throughout the country. including sending aid to Franco during the Spanish Civil War. Doing so will allow you to demand Equatorial Guinea from Spain, giving Argentina a foothold in the African front. The player can also re-establish the Ligas Patrióticas which will provide a number of divisions to use in the upcoming wars that you will no doubt be waging. Speaking of which, why not poke at Uruguay a little bit? If you can do so without escalating a conflict with Brazil, it would provide a nice foothold for your new regime to take on the rest of the continent.
This section is complety wrong, like not only fails to correctly reference the LP but it also mixes it with other nationalists groups which were independent.

The Liga Patriótica Argentina (in singular) was a nationalist paramilitary group created in 1919 which was used by Yrgoyen to kill inmigrants and striking workers during the Tragic Week (mfw the UCR isn't blessed). Carles unlike what KR might tell (undoubtedly the reason for why the LP is here) wasn't an Argentine Hitler, he was a nativist radical (in the sence of belonging to the UCR and later the UCRA) and who was an anglophile. After the Tragic Week the LP faded out of relevancy and its militants would go to other nationalists organizations.

The Legión Cívica Argentina was meant to be Uriburu's regime paramilitaries. Like Uriburu called them "the Argentine black shirts". With the failure of his project they faded out of relevancy and in 1932 they would suffer an split in the form of the Acción Nacionalista Argentina (ANA) who seeked to try to build a political party of this failure.

Finally the Unión Nacionalista Fascista was originally created as a fascist party by Italian-inmigrants and became active in Córdoba. It had a few militants but they never accomplish anything. There wasn't a lack of fascists in Argentina in this era, it is just that they were never united.

This doesn't meant that a fascist route is implausible because there was literally a few moments in which Argentina could have gone fascist. The first of this was in 1936, in which Diego Luis Molinari (from the fascist Partido Radical - Gorro Frigio) tried to coup the goverment with the help of Basilio Pertiné. If you wanted a fascist route this could by the way.




(the screenshots are from our lord and saviour Potash)

Alternatively another way Argentina could have a plausible fascist route is throught the power struggle inside the GOU dictatorship. Perón in popular culture is basically described as a Nazi, but in reality he was in the faction made up of the moderate pro-fascism people. His arch-nemesis Luis César Perlinger in the other hand (who opposed him in many things including the alliance with the trade unions) was basically a fascist and could be even described as even a Nazi.
A background report on the conflict, dated March 2, prepared by the Office of Strategic Services (OSS, which was the predecessor of the CIA) would describe Perlinger as having 'longstanding and deep pro-Nazi ideas,'" in close contact with the German embassy and who, at one time, had had a debt with a German bank in Buenos Aires. Perón was perceived, on the contrary, as the most skilled member of the new cabinet, without great culture but with an affable personality, with the ability to make decisions and with the capacity for violence” (Page. 1999, p. 82). Thus, according to this same author, both figures appeared to have equal, or even in some senses greater, power than the president. “The pathetic figure of Farrell quickly fell prey to the ridicule of the people of Buenos Aires.” A report from the North American military attaché in Buenos Aires included a rumor that was circulating in April:

Farrell is afraid that the nationalists or Perlinger will try to kill him. He fears Perón but cannot manage without him. He has discovered that being president takes away time from the activities he most enjoys: going to nightclubs and fighting. He would like to be a minister again or simply a general.

The decisive confrontations between Perón and Perlinger occurred at the beginning of July 1944, when an assembly of army officers had to decide who would fill the vacant position of vice president. Perón won by a narrow margin of six votes. With the help of Admiral Alberto Teisaire, the new Secretary of the Navy and a loyal ally, Perón immediately demanded – and received – Perlinger's resignation. Teisaire replaced him and with this Perón's control over the men-at-arms reached its peak. (Page, 1999, p. 83).
Click to expand...
from: https://antigua.unlam.edu.ar/index.php/antigua_matanza/article/view/70/188

So basically an alternate route for fascist Argentina is simply Perlinger winning the power struggle against Perón inside the GOU.

At long last, it is time to dominate the south. This foreign policy branch will take you through a number of steps where you will have the option to either bully your neighbors into submitting to you, or straight up marching on their borders in an all out war. Eventually, it will be time to turn to Argentina’s oldest rival to the north: Brazil. By taking out the largest nation on the continent, the Argentinian player will be in a good position to secure the rest of South America, eventually creating the South American Confederation and opening up the opportunity to integrate conquered territories into your nation.
The idea that an hypernationalist Argentina could core the rest of SA is laughable, like just in Brazil it would be impossible given the classic racism towards Brazilians by Platineans. Even in Uruguay they would have problems given that the whole point of Uruguay is that its people hate being ruled by Buenos Aires.
But what if you want a more radical change to Argentina’s government? Well, I have prepared a Communist branch just for that reason. Instead of a fraudulent or a clean election, it’s time for a call to reform as we dive into the Communist tree.
Okay, before writting further I have to clarify that a communist revolution is completely ASB. But we have to have one, so we need to take a look at Argentine leftism in order to see what would be the most "plausible" way this could work.

Speaking clearly, the PCA was (and it is a meme). Like the most you could say of them is that they supported the 70s dictatorship because they were antiperonists. But the idea that the Argentine communists could lead a revolution is laughable. Unironically the most plausible way I can find of justyfing this is due to a syndicalist revolution rather than just the PCA acting as the vanguard party of a revolution.

Now Argentina had a really important syndicalist movement, however the trade unions split in 1934 between the Marxist faction (the CGT) and the syndicalist ones (the USA). The communist focus tree should begin then with the handwaving of them uniting together. For good measure you could even add a focus about them allying with the FORJA people (the revolutionary socialist radicals).
Firstly, on the left, you can align yourself with the Soviets. This will keep Rodolfo Ghioldi in power and will make Argentina join the Comintern. From here on out, Argentina will gain access to Soviet companies (or MIOs if you have Arms Against Tyranny!) and focus on establishing a strong intelligence program in the name of state security. This branch culminates in Ghioldi centralizing power and becoming a true communist dictator!

On the right, however, you can put Fanny Edelman in power, creating a more independent socialist power in South America. Edelman’s path looks to supporting the common worker and providing rights for women, as well as sending socialist volunteers across seas to aid in revolutions across the world. Eventually, it will be time to open up the Buenos Aires Conference, where you will decide whether to keep Fanny in power, or instead allow Anarcho-Syndicalist Antonio Soto a chance to rule (More on this guy later!)
Edelman doesn't make sense as a leader, like clearly she is just there because le epic girlboss (which I would support but it doesn't make sense). Like she wasn't never that relevant and it doesn't make sense to differentiate her from Ghioldi as she was in the PCA. To not speak of how the woman in the photo isn't even her, that is a common misconception.

In my view as I described above the Buenos Aires congress would result either in the Marxists unions winning (in which case Ghioldi takes over, creates a leninist state and joins the USSR faction) or the syndicalists come in top. In any case the syndicalist leader wouldn't be Soto, but Sebastían Marotta, who was the leading syndicalist guy in the 30s.

You could also add FORJA as a path if you wanted le classic Latin American left-wing nationalism. Like they were starting the bullshit that Juan Manuel de Rosas was a leftist hero and what not.

The part about Liberation theology should be purged. Like it doesn't make sense without things like the II Vatican Council and the Movement for Priests of the Third World. It is a Cold War phenomen that doesn't fit here.
There are some formables, such as reforming the Argentine Confederation or uniting under the South American Socialist Republics, but I will not spill all here!
This is a common tendency in foreigns, to add formable tags to Argentina like "La Plata" (I hate that name). And it doesn't work like that. Like if you read the Argentine constitution, it says on it that "The United Provinces of the Río de la Plata" and the "Argentine Confederation" are valid names of the nation, which is to say that in theory they have the same status as the official name which is "Argentine Republic". From the Argentine POV the Argentine Confederation and the previous United Provinces are the same thing as Argentina, and thus unless you are a Rosist larper it doesn't make sense to ressurect any of the two. (To not say how Argentina controlls more territory that the Argentine Confederation ever did)

if Rosas in the XIX century had managed to conquer Uruguay and Paraguay he wouldn't have renamed the nation, it would still be Argentina.

To finish, I would recommend the team to read Potash' work "The Army and Argentine politics". Like he is a foreign but he interviewed a lot of relevant Argentine military people (you can check those online) and he is perhaps the only one who understood fully the Azul-Colorado wars from the 60s.

Like as a TNO dev I can't overstate how essential his work is to understand Argentina. And with this I say goodbye.
But we have to have one, so we need to take a look at Argentine leftism in order to see what would be the most "plausible" way this could work.
The best part about this is Paradox themselves set the precedent that we actually don't *have* to have every ideology available.

Such as how the Soviets don't have a democratic path, or the German Tree doesn't have a Communist path (because it was too "unrealistic" they said...)
I bought the new DLC, now I just need to wait

Also I'm in a campaign with infinite resources, so I can make super heavy tanks, what can I use them for?
Also I'm in a campaign with infinite resources, so I can make super heavy tanks, what can I use them for?
After teh latest dlc ( The Italian one IIRC ) those can only be used as support. But are pretty good to give your division armor, that protects it from soft damage, the most common in the game, specially against AI.
@Gukpard My review of the Uruguay part of the dlc (copied from the Paradox forums)
Now, I have to give credit where it is due. I was waiting with dreadful curiosity the Uruguay dev diary to see what horrors where on it and instead I am relieved that my worst fears haven't manifestated. There isn't a voluntary become Cisplatina option and there isn't nothing gregariously wrong as making Terra a leftist revolutionary as I have seen other mods do. Obviously the Nazi coup is there instead of an exploration of real Uruguayan fascism but that was obviously going to be in the dlc given that it is the most catchy thing. But I am relieved that there aren't things like Bordaberry's father declaring a monarchy like a certain mod does.

I see the acknowledgement that Terra was a dictator, and I hope that means he starts as non-aligned now. Him being a democrat was an insult to both Brum and Grauert, to not speak of how he was a philo-fascist conservative dictator. The Italian embassador Serafino Mazzolini was part of his inner circled and in his reports to Italy he openly simped for Terra, to not speak of how he even performed the fascist salute to the Italian delegation. (Rodríguez, A. (2009). Un pequeño lugar bajo el sol: Mussolini, la conquista de Etiopía y la diplomacia uruguaya, 1935-1938. p.32)

Despite these sympathies, Terra took care to not offend the US too much:

In that year 1933, a Havas cable dated in Rome reported that Terra had praised the Duce and fascism by stating that the "black shirts" were legitimate followers of Garibaldi's "red shirts."

The Minister of the Interior of the new "Third Republic", Dr. Francisco Ghigliani, would say: "I think Mussolini is right in saying that the only freedom that can be serious is the freedom of the State and the Individual in the State"

The President's diary would closely follow the social and economic experience of "the admirable fascist Italy", with undisguised sympathy always, especially since July 1935, when Ghigliani was separated from the leadership and was replaced by Dr. Domingo Bordaberry. Terra was decorated by the King of Italy, the Vice-President of the Republic as well. The Italian community, and its pro-fascist groups (like the Falangists in 1936) found a tolerant and complacent climate in Terra’s Uruguay. But that same year, when Roosevelt arrived, a new language was found: "The philosophies of Hitler and Mussolini are not ours. We do not want them. Nor have we ever wanted them."

It is that the social and economic experience of the "New Deal" was also admired. Years later, during the Baldomir government, the American journalist John Gunther would point out, referring to Dr. César Charlone: "I have heard of him - the same afternoon - speaking in favor of the fascists on the one hand and in favor of the Americans on the other.”

Jacob, R. (1983). El Uruguay de Terra. 1931-1938 p.76-77
Now I will be talking on the political branch, and right at the beginning we find issues.

Around 1938 he will step down and you can pick between either the Colorados or Blancos, which are the two main parties in Uruguay, but both are democratic aligned.

First, Uruguay for the large part of the XX century had one of the unique electoral systems of the world, in Spanish we call it "Ley de Lemas", you know it as double simultaneous vote. What this means is that elections weren't as binary as presented here, first the Blancos constantly failed to win (blessed) until the economy completely crashed in the 50s, and secondly, it all elections multiple candidates presented themselves under the same party. The Ley de Lemas was designed to protect the traditional parties (Blancos and Colorados), it allowed them to not split up by allowing each member of their big tent to make their play to get power without compromising the electoral chances of the party.

In the elections of 1938 we find out that Terra wanted to be succeded by a men for the Revolution of March (the name he gave to his coup in 1933, which also gives the name to his dictatorship, "Marzist" regime). And so under the Colorados two candidates ran: Alfredo Baldomir (his brother-in-law) or Eduardo Blanco Acevedo, (his co-father-in-law). He trusted both of this men and that was the point, both were key supporters of his dictatorship, with Baldomir being the leader of the police forces who did the coup in 1933 and with Blanco Acevedo serving as his minister.

Now, Baldomir ran under a reformist campaing which promised (without saying so) to amend the Marzist constitution of 1934 (in other words, restore democracy). While Eduardo Blaco Acevedo ran as the continuist candidate, promising to keep the dictatorship going. With this I am saying that all the options in the 1938 being democratic is a meme, only Baldomir ran on restoring Uruguay's liberal democracy.

To present 1940s Herrerists as democratic is also wrong, I could mention Herrera's sympathies for fascism and how he was even a member of the Spanish Falange, but what is important is that the Herrerists were part of the Marzist dictatorship and they didn't want it gone. The Constitution of 1934 mandated the sharing of power between both parties by making so that half of the senate went for the Blancos and the other half for the Colorados, as well as making it so that the goverment had to include ministers of the other party. This is how Haedo and Echegoyen (both Blancos) found himself in the cabinet during this era.
During his presidency Baldomir attempted to reform the constitution to restore democracy and the Herrerists continued to vote it down. The Golpe Bueno (Good Coup) of 1942 happened because Baldomir had enought of them eventually and did a self-coup to force-in his reforms. During the coup he even sent forces outside of Herrera's house, a clear message to the caudillo that he had had enough of his shit.

And so, giving that the Herrerists refused the return of Uruguayan democracy because they knew their chances of winning at the ballot box were slim, they shouldn't be democratic. Plus non-aligment is literally Herrerist ForPol.

Finally, let me say that the conservative class didn't just accept Baldomir's electoral win. They knew it meant the end of the Marzist dictatorship, and so the supporters of Eduardo Blanco Acevedo attempted a coup (in which Gabriel Terra Jr. was involved). This attempt was called "El Motincito" and it is obscure, but it happened.

The most reactionary sector of terrorism did not support Baldomir. Proof of this is that a few hours after his victory an event occurred that shocked public opinion: the so-called “Motincito” In the early morning of the 30th, according to versions published in "El Plata", the Infantry Corps No. 4, was preparing to arrest the newly elected President of the Republic, when he, informed of the fact, took refuge in the Cuartel de los Bomberos, from where the Chief of the Montevideo Police, Colonel Marcelino Elgue, would be arrested. (…)

The motives for this episode, which the government tried to downplay, were not clarified and still remain hidden, but it is known that senior army chiefs and officers who were dissatisfied with the electoral result were involved.

Frega, A. Trochon, T. Maronna, M. (1987) Baldomir y la restauración democrática (1938-1946) p.98-99

This coup could be easily used to justify a fascist path, Baldomir wins and the coup is sucessfull so Eduardo Blanco Acevedo is installed president, and the radicalization of having done the coup and disregarding the electoral process makes the marzists lean more to these Italian ties to the point in which they adopt fascism. It isn't that realistic given that EBA wasn't a fascist, but due to the wishes of the team to have a fascist path it could be a way.

Speaking of which, lets see the fascist path.

If Democracy isn’t to your liking you can instead go down to the Furhmann plan, ally with agitators like Adolfo Agorio become fascist and use it as a springboard for the Axis powers in South America. This path is now locked behind any election event and can be b-lined to at game start if so pleased.

Now, it is true that Agorio was a German agent, like the Nazis say as much basically and he was a guest of honor in Berlín:

In 1937, on the occasion of the founding of the Colorado Adolfo Agorio Club of the Acción Nacional Revisionista sector, the Nazis openly expressed their sympathies and support:

“We will soon publish the Revisionism program because we are convinced that it contains interesting points for the Germans in Uruguay. Until now we know Adolfo Agorio as a philosopher, thinker, idealist, as a writer who loves the truth and his nation and as a defender of true human rights. We sincerely hope that he, as an expert in addition to the Third Reich, from his own experience, also in his role as a politician, maintains his recognized friendship for our ideology. We know that his efforts will contribute to the well-being of his beloved homeland and we wish him and his followers complete success.

Camou, M. (1986) El nacional-socialismo en Uruguay 1933-1938 p.76-77

But I don't think he and his AR should be discarried since he was the most prolific fascist and they are natives. The Nazis wanted to slave the Uruguayan population to create a new German rural aristocracy, and if Paradox wants to keep that is fine, but I think that a native Uruguayan path under Agorio should be added.
Almost everything that Agorio wrote is available for free on Ánaforas. To get his fascism one has to read his book "Roma y el espiritú de occidente" (link here). Alternatively the historian Alfredo Alpini wrote a good book in which he studies all Uruguayan fascism in the 30s. It is called "La derecha política en Uruguay en la era del fascismo, 1930-1940." and it is basically an obligatory lecture for this subject matter.

Lastly, I want to talk about the Uruguay formable.


Now, for my life I can't understand why you guys went with his made up thing instead of referencing the Liga Federal. Like obviously a super-Uruguay is unrealistic, but if you were to reference something, referencing the Liga Federal is what makes the most sense. I am not on the whole Artiguist train but some of my friends do, and all Uruguayans who are into that would love that very much.

Ah, I forgot, please add the option for the Batllists in the dem branch to join the allies. And with this I say my goodbyes.
@SilverImperator they made Vargas integralist, let's bomb Paradox HQ



They also used an AI filter for the portraits, they look bad
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