Heartless America: Midwest Secession(Planning/Proposal Thread)

Now, everybody knows by now that Jord is an ardent Midwest regionalist, so I won't waste time telling you all that.

I've been thinking recently about how every single region in the US can(and has) been given a TL where it secedes from the US except for the Midwest. Naturally, I find this a little insulting. If the secession of any region could have a larger effect than the Midwest, it's hard to see. Which is why I wanted to see if it, and how it, could be done.

Unfortunately, my knowledge of our region's history is more broad and could use some detail. I have a couple of ideas for the secession, but could use a little help. Which is why I decided to post this before trying to write a TL.

I'm looking for something I could use as a POD, even a POD further back whose butterflies cause the secession. If I can find a good one, I'll have a good place to start with research and can (attempt to) write the TL. If anyone wants to speculate on effects of Midwest independence on anything, I encourage that as well.

By the way, I'm defining Midwest to be, at minimum: most of the Great Lakes and Great Plains states. There should be plenty of room to maneuver that way.

So, anybody have some suggestions/comments/ridicule?

:)
 
have you read Meepy's "A 3rd Pistol" long story short Michigan secedes after the death of Andy Jackson at the hands of the guy who had 3 misfired pistols in OTL, 1834 (check date ?). Van Buren fails as POTUS and tada Republic of Michigan under President Louis Cass. :D

As for a POD: whenever one of those "Countries of an Alternate World" thread pops up I usually create a Great Lakes Republic based in Duluth, and encompassing most of the region you describe. After FDR is assinated by that guy in Miami I have John Nance utterly fail as President and the Bonus riots of 1934 get out of hand and most the states decide to solve things on there own and leave the Union. Since they are all post-1900 I usually have Floyd Olson get together with some Midwestern progressives who seize control of the ND,SD, IOWA, MN, WI, and butterfly the assissanation of Chicago Mayor Anton Cermack. This creates a socialist Republic in the Midwest. :D
 
have you read Meepy's "A 3rd Pistol" long story short Michigan secedes after the death of Andy Jackson at the hands of the guy who had 3 misfired pistols in OTL, 1834 (check date ?). Van Buren fails as POTUS and tada Republic of Michigan under President Louis Cass. :D
Well, I was hoping for something larger than Michigan. Most of the Great Lakes and at least part of the Great Plains for example.

I'll have to look up "3rd Pistol" though.

As for a POD: whenever one of those "Countries of an Alternate World" thread pops up I usually create a Great Lakes Republic based in Duluth, and encompassing most of the region you describe. After FDR is assinated by that guy in Miami I have John Nance utterly fail as President and the Bonus riots of 1934 get out of hand and most the states decide to solve things on there own and leave the Union. Since they are all post-1900 I usually have Floyd Olson get together with some Midwestern progressives who seize control of the ND,SD, IOWA, MN, WI, and butterfly the assissanation of Chicago Mayor Anton Cermack. This creates a socialist Republic in the Midwest. :D
I'm a little leery of using post-1900 POD's because there's a standard American identity around and enough industrial capacity in other regions to make the Midwest secession very hard to pull off.

However, I do like the idea of a Progressive dominated republic, as it suits the political feelings of the region prior to WWII.
 
I once made a map with an independent Midwest where Burr's plan goes to the Northwest Territory instead of Texas. You could consider that if you don't mind the POD being that early. It would also probably be more plausible for a Midwest that expands into the Great Plains.
 
I once made a map with an independent Midwest where Burr's plan goes to the Northwest Territory instead of Texas. You could consider that if you don't mind the POD being that early. It would also probably be more plausible for a Midwest that expands into the Great Plains.
While the ideal plan I had in mind would be an actual secession from the Union, that would be pretty interesting too.

Do you have a link to this map by any chance?
 
Well, I was hoping for something larger than Michigan. Most of the Great Lakes and at least part of the Great Plains for example.

I'll have to look up "3rd Pistol" though.

It contains more than OTL michigan it is actually most of the NW territory. Check out the thread. Here's the link:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119253

I'm a little leery of using post-1900 POD's because there's a standard American identity around and enough industrial capacity in other regions to make the Midwest secession very hard to pull off.

However, I do like the idea of a Progressive dominated republic, as it suits the political feelings of the region prior to WWII.

If you think about everyone is going to be focusing on there own problems and the fact of the '29-'34 is this last time where regionalism is really effective (meaning that people viewed there region seperate from the US, the South into the 60s is an exception; after WW2 the US really see its self as one country and not multiple regions.

By messing with the Great Depression era. There is a lot opportunity to really destroy America as you see fit. Also the natural resources aren't played out and the trade relationships with Canada are beginning to really kickoff and so it does IMO create a good opportunity to split the nation.
 
Interesting. I would like to preserve a US if I can, but I'll keep that in mind.

It contains more than OTL michigan it is actually most of the NW territory. Check out the thread. Here's the link:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=119253
Bah, I'm a wisconsinite. I have to complain about being called part of Michigan.:p

If you think about everyone is going to be focusing on there own problems and the fact of the '29-'34 is this last time where regionalism is really effective (meaning that people viewed there region seperate from the US, the South into the 60s is an exception; after WW2 the US really see its self as one country and not multiple regions.

By messing with the Great Depression era. There is a lot opportunity to really destroy America as you see fit. Also the natural resources aren't played out and the trade relationships with Canada are beginning to really kickoff and so it does IMO create a good opportunity to split the nation.
I suppose there is some truth to that. After all, the Dust Bowl's a uniquely Midwestern problem and if people see the rest of the country as bungling that up there could be a problem. IIRC, Iowa had a pretty large dispute about its surplus corn harvest during the depression with the federal government too. I can't remember the details but I'll have to go check on that.
 
Interesting. I would like to preserve a US if I can, but I'll keep that in mind.
Yeah, the rest of the map was mostly just me going off random thoughts and trying to make some interesting state borders. :D You could probably keep the US whole in this scenario.

Burr's country would probably court the British and be on their side if there was another war between the US and Britain, and I'm not sure how a lack of making the Northwest Territory into states would affect the slavery debate.
 
I agree with Jord in that its fairly important for the Midwest to gain its independence early, before an American sense of national identity coalesces. There also needs to be incentive the Midwest to take a seperate path, rther than to be politically and economically joined to the east.

A potential point of divergence could be a longer, costlier and ultimately more sucessful revolutionary war. Britain is effectively removed for the north American continent, however its absence removes the presence of a unity inducing national enemy. The articles of confederation continue to provide the colonists with an inadequate, weak decentralized government. The colonists likewise are burdened by greater debts, and more economic uncertainity. The attempts at replicating OTL's constitutional convention fail, as it proves to be impossible to create a super-majority with the addition of Canadian and Quebecois delegates. Relations between the colonies worsen, and before long the union dissolves.
 
I am very shaky on this, but I have read somewhere that there was a (maybe half serious) German-American sucessionist movement in Wisconsin in the 1850s.The would be successionists were disuaded from taking this any further by Carl Schurz.
 
Yeah, the rest of the map was mostly just me going off random thoughts and trying to make some interesting state borders. :D You could probably keep the US whole in this scenario.

Burr's country would probably court the British and be on their side if there was another war between the US and Britain, and I'm not sure how a lack of making the Northwest Territory into states would affect the slavery debate.
Sounds about right. As for slavery, that is an important question. There is the DoD route, but I don't think that's likely. IOTL a large amount of the power-holders in the Midwest were Northeastern descendents and that trend continued for a long time, here that might be diverted south and make things more muddled instead of clear cut cultural divides.

I agree with Jord in that its fairly important for the Midwest to gain its independence early, before an American sense of national identity coalesces. There also needs to be incentive the Midwest to take a seperate path, rther than to be politically and economically joined to the east.

A potential point of divergence could be a longer, costlier and ultimately more sucessful revolutionary war. Britain is effectively removed for the north American continent, however its absence removes the presence of a unity inducing national enemy. The articles of confederation continue to provide the colonists with an inadequate, weak decentralized government. The colonists likewise are burdened by greater debts, and more economic uncertainity. The attempts at replicating OTL's constitutional convention fail, as it proves to be impossible to create a super-majority with the addition of Canadian and Quebecois delegates. Relations between the colonies worsen, and before long the union dissolves.
Personally, I'd kind of like to see a true US remaining, not just another cliche "Balkanized America" Thread. I do think an earlier POD is better, but mainly because pre-1900 there's a far better potential for regionalism/ideology to grow to a point of secession in the right circumstances.

So... Check out my TL. Wisconsin owns most of UP Michigan AND extends to the Mississippi.
It's also under Canada, and thus a monarchy, which ruins everything.:p

I am very shaky on this, but I have read somewhere that there was a (maybe half serious) German-American sucessionist movement in Wisconsin in the 1850s.The would be successionists were disuaded from taking this any further by Carl Schurz.
I had thought about a more Germanized flavor actually. One of the vague ideas in my head was a less-assimilated immigrant culture in the Midwest in a more nationalist US that lost the civil war. The Union tries to stamp out any "subversive identities" like the Southron regional one to prevent another civil war and accidentally ends up provoking one in the Midwest.

I'll look and see if I can find anything on this group though. The Civil War is one of those areas that has the most potential in my mind actually.

Oh god. Not those crazies.:rolleyes:
 
Sounds about right. As for slavery, that is an important question. There is the DoD route, but I don't think that's likely. IOTL a large amount of the power-holders in the Midwest were Northeastern descendents and that trend continued for a long time, here that might be diverted south and make things more muddled instead of clear cut cultural divides.

Personally, I'd kind of like to see a true US remaining, not just another cliche "Balkanized America" Thread. I do think an earlier POD is better, but mainly because pre-1900 there's a far better potential for regionalism/ideology to grow to a point of secession in the right circumstances.
What do you consider a 'true US'? Extending to the Pacific? The Rockies? The Mississippi? An independent Midwest is going to have major implications on American expansion west, and the US is not likely to get anywhere near as far as they did in OTL.
 
What do you consider a 'true US'? Extending to the Pacific? The Rockies? The Mississippi? An independent Midwest is going to have major implications on American expansion west, and the US is not likely to get anywhere near as far as they did in OTL.
Sorry, I guess I'm being kind of fickle and unclear.:eek: I just meant a US in the sense that the US actually existed and at least nominally included the Midwest for a time before the secession. After the secession, it could be reduced to New England for all I care. I was just thinking a still somewhat powerful Union remnant would make the TL more interesting.

I'll try not to steer it so much with my random fancies though.
 
Sorry, I guess I'm being kind of fickle and unclear.:eek: I just meant a US in the sense that the US actually existed and at least nominally included the Midwest for a time before the secession. After the secession, it could be reduced to New England for all I care. I was just thinking a still somewhat powerful Union remnant would make the TL more interesting.

I'll try not to steer it so much with my random fancies though.
Ah. I could see it keeping the South up until the Mississippi though, if the slavery issue stays low key enough until it becomes economically unviable. A Southern-dominated US also has more of a chance at expanding into Mexico and the Caribbean as well.
 
New England secession in 1815. Then I would go for a slightly longer, more drawn-out Civil War at a later point than in OTL, so you can have the draft troubles that were associated with NYC spread to the Midwest, possibly acquiring a "hyphenated" bent to them ("The Union just wants to draft German farmers to fight New Yorkers businessmen's war"). Conclude with a Northern victory, but get a Democrat elected promptly in 1868 to nearly eradicate any real gains vis-a-vis freedmen in the South. Get an earlier Populist movement off of the ground. Have just-as- or, better, even-more-corrupt-politicians-than-in-OTL run Washington for a couple decades. Finally, hit us with a nice stolen election a la OTL 1876 to cause a new Civil War (as almost happened in OTL), only this time aligned in all sorts of places, not necessarily North/South. Have the UK intervene on behalf of Side-X-Which-Happens-To-Control-the-Midwest. That's as good as I can do.
 
I have a feeling that in order to get the Midwest to secede, you'd have to set a precedent first. They're not going to be the first states to do so, since the original (European) culture is so thoroughly American -- most of them still have relatives back east.

The immigrants aren't as much American, but they're going to be difficult to convince: they came to the area because they wanted more political stability than their homelands, they're not going to vote to create instability. The U.S. government would probably have to become staunchly anti-immigrant -- to the point of making it completely illegal.

However, once cultural differences begin to develop, if there was already a precedent for states having seceded, then it might happen in the early twentieth century -- but probably only if there is a way for them to do so relatively peacefully. I doubt that the Midwest would be willing to fight a second civil war to secede -- without a drastic change to the government policies in Washington.

Say -- what if the South becomes more powerful in the original union, basically running Washington for several decades, bringing their economic systems and culture into the mid-atlantic. Then, the civil war results in the *north* seceding from the union. Early in the war they recapture New England, but the Midwest is able to hold them off with support from Britain, and the war ends Uti possidetis when Europe steps in to arbitrate peace.
 
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