He-219 'Uhu' mass produced

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_219
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_he219.html
Possibly one of the most effective night fighters of the war, the 'Uhu' was opposed by Erhard Milch, Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, who cancelled it because of his investments in other, ultimately less effective aircraft. What if it had been mass produced instead of halted after ~250 units were produced?

Obviously it wouldn't be a war winner, but it could have a major effect on the airwar against the RAF, specifically because it could intercept the mosquito, which had been previously untouchable. Furthermore it had advance radar equipment that allowed it to operate independently of ground control once directed to a bomber stream.

Thoughts?
 
Part of the problem was not Milch's hostility to the He-219 per se, but general indecision in the RLM about night-fighters in general. The Ju-388 was also a potentially excellent nightfighter, and effort was split between versions of the Bf-110 (which was really not ideal) and the Ju-88, which was more effective. Then there is the effort spent on the Ta-154 and some desire to focus on a two-seat night fighting version of the Do-335.

While I also have generally read that the He-219 was an excellent machine, there are some who believe is was in fact, underpowered and no better than the Ju-388. Like a lot of speculation about Luftwaffe "what-ifs" there is a shortage of real facts - as opposed to opinions.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_219
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_he219.html
Possibly one of the most effective night fighters of the war, the 'Uhu' was opposed by Erhard Milch, Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, who cancelled it because of his investments in other, ultimately less effective aircraft. What if it had been mass produced instead of halted after ~250 units were produced?

Obviously it wouldn't be a war winner, but it could have a major effect on the airwar against the RAF, specifically because it could intercept the mosquito, which had been previously untouchable. Furthermore it had advance radar equipment that allowed it to operate independently of ground control once directed to a bomber stream.

Thoughts?

A couple of reasons that it was limited, include but where not limited too

1. expensive as hell
2. heinkel's actual production models didn't meet the brochure figures
3. it had high (for the day) wing loading which made it a very hot ship to handle, especially at altitude
4. because of point three it was extremely difficult get much out of inexperienced pilots
5. The ME-110 and JU-88 where already proven designs AND they could serve other roles when needed (ie scouting or day fighter bombing) whereas the Uhu was an uncompromised nightfighter

IMO the Uhu as it was, was probably an uncessary diversion
 

Deleted member 1487

Part of the problem was not Milch's hostility to the He-219 per se, but general indecision in the RLM about night-fighters in general. The Ju-388 was also a potentially excellent nightfighter, and effort was split between versions of the Bf-110 (which was really not ideal) and the Ju-88, which was more effective. Then there is the effort spent on the Ta-154 and some desire to focus on a two-seat night fighting version of the Do-335.

While I also have generally read that the He-219 was an excellent machine, there are some who believe is was in fact, underpowered and no better than the Ju-388. Like a lot of speculation about Luftwaffe "what-ifs" there is a shortage of real facts - as opposed to opinions.

Any sources for more info?


A couple of reasons that it was limited, include but where not limited too

1. expensive as hell
2. heinkel's actual production models didn't meet the brochure figures
3. it had high (for the day) wing loading which made it a very hot ship to handle, especially at altitude
4. because of point three it was extremely difficult get much out of inexperienced pilots
5. The ME-110 and JU-88 where already proven designs AND they could serve other roles when needed (ie scouting or day fighter bombing) whereas the Uhu was an uncompromised nightfighter

IMO the Uhu as it was, was probably an uncessary diversion

What are your sources?
 
Any sources for more info?




What are your sources?

Mike Spick's book gives the same tidbits I did

but also, Heinkel was rather notorious for overpromise/under deliver in their designs anyway (especially with the HE-177) so it fits in line with their MO

if I was Speer or Milch I would have canned it too... the JU-88 and ME-110 where already effective at night anyway... German failures in nightfighting later in the war where electronic counter measure and shortage of pilots/spare parts/fuel related.... not quality of aircraft
 

Deleted member 1487

Mike Spick's book gives the same tidbits I did

but also, Heinkel was rather notorious for overpromise/under deliver in their designs anyway (especially with the HE-177) so it fits in line with their MO

if I was Speer or Milch I would have canned it too... the JU-88 and ME-110 where already effective at night anyway... German failures in nightfighting later in the war where electronic counter measure and shortage of pilots/spare parts/fuel related.... not quality of aircraft

What about the ability to intercept the Mosquito?
And is that the Mike Spick of Luftwaffe Victorious fame/infamy?
 
While the He-219 could shoot down Mossies, Mossies could shoot down Uhus. The promulgation of night intruder tactics were just one of several factors that made the life of German nightfighters shorter. Another was the loss of land. Another was the use of nightfighters for special attacks on American strategic bombers, for which the Heinkel was unsuited.
 
An interesting page on the Uhu, which coincides with much of which I have read elsewhere, including the plane being underpowered:
According to Gebhard Aders (author of Geschichte der deutschen Nachtjägd), the He 219 "never achieved the values given in its manual. With almost full tanks and full armament, the He 219 could not get above 26,247 ft (8000 m). With Lichtenstein and flame dampers, the maximum speed fell to about 311 mph (500 km/h) at this height." On the other hand, he states "The 219 was the only German night-fighter that could still climb on one engine, and even go round again for another landing attempt," a belief echoed by many former Uhu pilots. Yet that greatest of test pilots, Captain E. M. 'Winkle' Brown, who flew several captured He 219s, wrote in Air International that the type was "somewhat overrated... It suffered from what is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin-engined aircraft can have, that being it was underpowered. This defect makes take-off a critical manoeuvre in the event of an engine failing, and a landing with one engine out can be equally critical. There certainly could be no overshooting with the He 219 in that condition."This marginal performance is the more remarkable when it is remembered that the DB 603 was the largest of the inverted V-12 engines used by the Luftwaffe, with a cubic capacity 65 per cent greater than that of the Merlin. The problem lay squarely in the growth of systems and equipment with which the Uhu was packed, so that a typical He 219A-7 version weighed more empty than any Ju 88 night-fighter, and more than a fully-loaded Mosquito.
 

Deleted member 1487


Also from your link:
"The He 219 V1 (first prototype) made its maiden flight on 15 November 1942, and demonstrated outstanding handling and performance. The only real problem was poor yaw/roll stability, rectified in the third aircraft by enlarging the tail and extending the rear fuselage. There then began a process of development and tinkering with the armament and equipment that became so complex that today it is impossible to unravel. Even during the war, the RLM (air ministry) asked whether the profusion of types and designations could be simplified. The prototypes flew with a recorded 29 different variations of armament, while the plans for a manufacturing programme were thrown into disarray by repeated air raids on Rostock in March and April 1942, which twice destroyed virtually all the He 219 drawings. These attacks prompted Heinkel to plan for production at Vienna-Schwechat, fuselages being supplied from Mielec in Poland; continued bitter opposition, led by Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch, repeatedly delayed any production of what any impartial observer must have concluded was an outstanding aircraft."

"So, how does one assess this controversial aircraft? There is no doubt it was a 1940 design of exceptional merit which could in a more ordered society have been developed for many roles with telling effect, as was the UK's Mosquito. The mass of sub-types merely diluted the main production effort, and the consistent failure of Daimler-Benz and Junkers to deliver the hoped for engines killed the advanced versions that would have kept the He 219 in front. As for the aircraft itself opinions are divided."

"The main trouble was that, despite having an assembly line at Schwechat, another about to start deliveries at Marienehe and a third being set up at the vast plant at Oranienburg (on tapering off of He 111 production), Heinkel's huge network of plants simply could not deliver He 219s. This was partly because of the fantastic profusion of sub-variants, many of them launched to meet official criticisms."

The pilots seemed to have liked it and the major problem was that it was modified too much and packed with too much gear that proved unnecessary. Indeed much of that was only added due to official criticisms that were aimed at sabotaging the aircraft due to Milch's vendetta against the project.

As you highlighted:
"This marginal performance is the more remarkable when it is remembered that the DB 603 was the largest of the inverted V-12 engines used by the Luftwaffe, with a cubic capacity 65 per cent greater than that of the Merlin. The problem lay squarely in the growth of systems and equipment with which the Uhu was packed, so that a typical He 219A-7 version weighed more empty than any Ju 88 night-fighter, and more than a fully-loaded Mosquito."

A list off all the production versions, mostly night fighter varieties:
He 219 V1/V2, He 219 V3-V6, He 219A-0, He 219A-1, He 219A-2, He 219A-3, He 219A-4, He 219A-5, He 219A-6, He 219A-7, He 219B, He 219C/C-1/C-2, He 319, He 419, Hü 211.

that is a hell of a lot for a production run of only 263
 
Yes, the He 219 had an impressive start and a similar development trajectory to the unfortunate P-39 Airacobra. Initially, both looked as if they might be world beaters but, due to bureaucratic intervention, neither achieved its full potential. (Or, the He-219 and P-39 might be viewed as the anti-Mustangs, a plane where bureaucratic intervention led to the plane reaching its full potential.)

Also from your link:
"The He 219 V1 (first prototype) made its maiden flight on 15 November 1942, and demonstrated outstanding handling and performance. The only real problem was poor yaw/roll stability, rectified in the third aircraft by enlarging the tail and extending the rear fuselage. There then began a process of development and tinkering with the armament and equipment that became so complex that today it is impossible to unravel. Even during the war, the RLM (air ministry) asked whether the profusion of types and designations could be simplified. The prototypes flew with a recorded 29 different variations of armament, while the plans for a manufacturing programme were thrown into disarray by repeated air raids on Rostock in March and April 1942, which twice destroyed virtually all the He 219 drawings. These attacks prompted Heinkel to plan for production at Vienna-Schwechat, fuselages being supplied from Mielec in Poland; continued bitter opposition, led by Generalfeldmarschall Erhard Milch, repeatedly delayed any production of what any impartial observer must have concluded was an outstanding aircraft."

"So, how does one assess this controversial aircraft? There is no doubt it was a 1940 design of exceptional merit which could in a more ordered society have been developed for many roles with telling effect, as was the UK's Mosquito. The mass of sub-types merely diluted the main production effort, and the consistent failure of Daimler-Benz and Junkers to deliver the hoped for engines killed the advanced versions that would have kept the He 219 in front. As for the aircraft itself opinions are divided."

"The main trouble was that, despite having an assembly line at Schwechat, another about to start deliveries at Marienehe and a third being set up at the vast plant at Oranienburg (on tapering off of He 111 production), Heinkel's huge network of plants simply could not deliver He 219s. This was partly because of the fantastic profusion of sub-variants, many of them launched to meet official criticisms."

The pilots seemed to have liked it and the major problem was that it was modified too much and packed with too much gear that proved unnecessary. Indeed much of that was only added due to official criticisms that were aimed at sabotaging the aircraft due to Milch's vendetta against the project.

As you highlighted:
"This marginal performance is the more remarkable when it is remembered that the DB 603 was the largest of the inverted V-12 engines used by the Luftwaffe, with a cubic capacity 65 per cent greater than that of the Merlin. The problem lay squarely in the growth of systems and equipment with which the Uhu was packed, so that a typical He 219A-7 version weighed more empty than any Ju 88 night-fighter, and more than a fully-loaded Mosquito."

A list off all the production versions, mostly night fighter varieties:
He 219 V1/V2, He 219 V3-V6, He 219A-0, He 219A-1, He 219A-2, He 219A-3, He 219A-4, He 219A-5, He 219A-6, He 219A-7, He 219B, He 219C/C-1/C-2, He 319, He 419, Hü 211.

that is a hell of a lot for a production run of only 263
 
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Any sources for more info?

You might want to visit this site and read some He-219 threads. There are a number of posters who seem to have done a fair amount of research on Luftwaffe night fighters and who will argue quite forcefully that the Uhu was not the machine some published authors (like Green) would suggest it was.

The bottom line is that there are divergent opinions and I tend to believe nobody really knows, since most of this comes from various German sources with different axes to grind.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/
 
What about the ability to intercept the Mosquito?
And is that the Mike Spick of Luftwaffe Victorious fame/infamy?

indeed, his story was asb but his aircraft research was top notch... also luftwaffe aces series on hans wolfgang schnauzer (highest nightfighter ace) has excellent info on the nachtjagdflieger

shooting down mosquito's isn't particularly important to the nachtjagdflieger

keep in mind

night fighter to night fighter confrontations where rare
night fighter to night fighter engagements where even more rare
air to air victories in a night fighter to night fighter engagement where more rare still

namely this

the primative airborne radar employed would have a really hard time tracking a fighter as it manuevered (for example, in the German lichetstein system you had to be on the same altitude as your target and within 3k meters)... so once the fighter detected they where under attack (surprise being the only way to actually win one of these engagements) they would break off and it was mroe or less impossible to track them

the mosquitos are not carrying the bombs that are destroying hamburg and dresden

in reading about schnauffers missions even into late 44-45 it never seemed the me-110 had a problem infiltrating the bomber stream anyway... and whilst hunting in the stream they where safe from mosquito's since the mosquitos didn't usually operate inside the stream for fear of collission

the only german aircraft that would be able to catch and kill a mosquito in a night fighter situation would be an me-262 two seater and a litchenstein (and even then its a serious and uncessary diversion of resources since it couldnt hunt bombers at night due to its speed creating too high a risk of collission)
 
One of the He 219's main assets was its armament, I believe. The Bf 110G/H normally had 2 x 20mm cannon and 2 x 30mm cannon. The Ju 88G usually carried 5-6 x 20mm cannon. Meanwhile the Uhu carried either 6 x 20mm cannon, 6 x 20mm and 2 x 30mm cannon, or 2 x 20mm and 6 x 30mm cannon. Having double the firepower is, in some ways, having double the aircraft. Besides, the He 219 was still very fast despite being "underpowered"; some could hit 416mph in level flight at 6000m.

I don't think that the Uhu could have seriously affected the war--given the way bureaucracy and resource strain hurt the program, it was doomed from the start and probably should not have been built--but that doesn't mean that it wasn't one of the finest planes of the war.
 
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