He 111 given more production capacity 1939

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Deleted member 1487

1. That's almost enough time if the He111 thing worked out.
Not for the Blitz its not, nor does it make sense to build the Do-217 by 1942, because it didn't offer better performance than the Ju88, at least not enough to justify its entry, especially as the LW thought the Ju288 would be ready by then, though if not in 1942, then by 1943. The Ju288 offered much better performance than the Do-217.

2. It couldn't have been as bad as the DB-606.
Nothing was. They should have kept developing the Db603 from 1937 and the Db604 from 1939.

3. There had to have been some kind of short term compromise.
The He111 soldiers on, unless you develop a totally different aircraft that didn't exist IOTL. I don't think there is a good option because German engines weren't powerful enough to carry more than the Ju88 or He111.

What if the Dornier Do-217 would have won the contract for long-range bomber instead of the Heinkel He177, without the demand of dive bombing capabilities? Then there would have been much in common with an excising aircraft family.
Totally different aircraft. The Do-217 in no way could meet the Bomber A specs. It had its own specs, plus by the time the Do217 even started development (BTW it was forced to dive bomb by Udet too), which took a while on its own, the He177 offered far better performance and they didn't realize the developmental problems yet.

The Do217 was a totally new design and had nothing in common with the Do17 except superficially. The guts were totally different. In fact I don't think the Do217 was a good idea and should have never been produced, with the resources going to the Ju88 project.

You mean the Do-317 right? I'd never heard of it before but it looks like a a solid idea. Anybody know anything about that plane?
It offered less performance than the Ju288, so it was dumped pretty early on. Just have the RLM stick to the Db604, it would be ready in 1942-3 and so would the Ju288.
 
Totally different aircraft. The Do-217 in no way could meet the Bomber A specs. It had its own specs, plus by the time the Do217 even started development (BTW it was forced to dive bomb by Udet too), which took a while on its own, the He177 offered far better performance and they didn't realize the developmental problems yet.

The Do217 was a totally new design and had nothing in common with the Do17 except superficially. The guts were totally different. In fact I don't think the Do217 was a good idea and should have never been produced, with the resources going to the Ju88 project.

Right, because it was an altered design of the first intentions.
The real damage was done when the Ural bomber project was killed by Kesselring (or Goering)in April 1937. Especially the Junkers Ju-88 had a promising start. The use as an airliner (Ju-90) and the development of the last into the Ju-290 and Ju-390 indicates that the original Ju-89 could have fulfilled the intended role well.
 

Deleted member 1487

Right, because it was an altered design of the first intentions.
What, the Do 217? As far as I can tell it was designed with the dive requirement, but couldn't really pull it off so was pushed off. The delay was largely caused by the bomb bay redesigns which finally made it better than the Ju88 in load, and the engines, which weren't reliable until 1942.

The real damage was done when the Ural bomber project was killed by Kesselring (or Goering)in April 1937. Especially the Junkers Ju-88 had a promising start. The use as an airliner (Ju-90) and the development of the last into the Ju-290 and Ju-390 indicates that the original Ju-89 could have fulfilled the intended role well.
I've gone back and forth on this issue; right now I'm of the mind that more twin engine bombers would have been better for Germany than the Ural bomber. The Ju290 was only possible with the improved engine developments 1943 AND years of development work. By 1943 the Ju290 in no way resembled the Ju89; in fact it was a totally new aircraft, as it received a totally new fuselage with the Ju90 and later totally new wings.
So I don't think the Ju290 demonstrates anything about the Ju89 other than to get to that point they had to throw out the Ju89 and start over.

A four propellor He177 would have been available much earlier in much greater numbers with greater capabilities than the Ju290 or whatever version of the Ju89 eventually emerges. The only way either would ever develop is if Wever didn't die, so if that happens, then the He177 is more likely to come out without the technical problems by 1941-2 rather than the Ju89 being developed and becoming mass produceable by then. Edward Homze in "Arming the Luftwaffe" shows incontrovertible proof from RLM documents that Wever was going to kill further development of the Ural Bombers and focus on the Bomber A project; its still more likely that he will order the development of more than just the HE177, but as it wouldn't have the dive requirement in that case, so is ready by 1941-2 with much better performance than if they had just kept the Ural Bomber project going.
 
A four propellor He177 would have been available much earlier in much greater numbers with greater capabilities than the Ju290 or whatever version of the Ju89 eventually emerges. The only way either would ever develop is if Wever didn't die, so if that happens, then the He177 is more likely to come out without the technical problems by 1941-2 rather than the Ju89 being developed and becoming mass produceable by then. Edward Homze in "Arming the Luftwaffe" shows incontrovertible proof from RLM documents that Wever was going to kill further development of the Ural Bombers and focus on the Bomber A project; its still more likely that he will order the development of more than just the HE177, but as it wouldn't have the dive requirement in that case, so is ready by 1941-2 with much better performance than if they had just kept the Ural Bomber project going.

The real issue with German (heavy) bombers is the availability of suitable engines. So it would be practical to proceed the idea of more medium bombers.

It still would be interesting to know what the introduction date of the He-177 would have been without the delay due to the dive-bombing capabilities demand. In that case they could have used four Daimler-Benz DB 601s.
 
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Deleted member 1487

The real issue with German (heavy) bombers is the availability of suitable engines. So it would be practical to proceed the idea of more medium bombers.

It still would be interesting to know what the introduction date of the He-177 would have been without the delay due to the dive-bombing capabilities demand. In that case they could have used four Daimler-Benz DB 601s.

Based on the info in Nowarra's book on the He177, I would say that due to initial delays with the mockup means the two propellor version could enter testing in December 1938. If there is the go-ahead for Heinkel's suggestion of a four propellor version to be tested in tandem as a back up, I think that could be ready any time between January 1939 and April 1939 based on a whole bunch of variables.

Normally airframes took about 2 years of development to bring to production, which the He177 certainly needed even without the dive requirement or engine issues. So let's say that its production ready in March 1941, which would be about 26 months of development time. By then there would be the 1400hp DB601Fs. Of course we could also hypothesize that with the need for a four prop configuration, they would need more powerful engines due to greater drag, so don't cancel the DB603 in 1937, but that would almost be a separate topic.

Anyway, if it enters production, initial output would be very slow and a new strategic bomber unit would have to be formed, which would take about 6 months to familiarize themselves with the new aircraft and develop methods and doctrine. So they would likely not be operational until 1942 probably around Spring. By that point they could get the newly perfected BMW801s, but the fuel consumption of those would likely not offer any major benefits over the DB601s, which had the best fuel consumption to power ratio of all German high horsepower engines in WW2.

So by May 1942 there would be at least one fully operational Geschwader of around 90-100 He177Bs. With a large operational range the could hit Baku and Soviet oil installations in the Caucasus or facilities in the Urals, not to mention electrical installations in the Moscow-Upper Volga area.

They would look like the He277, which was a development of the He177B IOTL. By 1943 they would start fitting the DB603s, which would by 1944 generate 2000hp each. Still even in 1943 with 1750-1800 hp each would give it significant range and speed. By 1944 it would have very similar capabilities to the B29.
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So if may 1942 is the date of an operational Geschwader there still is a change on the eastern front for the Germans. On the other front the production capacity of the UK could be the target of such aircraft.
 

Deleted member 1487

So if may 1942 is the date of an operational Geschwader there still is a change on the eastern front for the Germans. On the other front the production capacity of the UK could be the target of such aircraft.

Historically this aircraft entered production in the A1 version, which meant it was nearly useless. Yet over the next several years some 1200 were produced, so with the POD that the four propellor version is built, there is no additional production burden on Germany, so no need to subtract anything to get it; all that changes is that the aircraft actually works.

Yes, there are much better and easier targets on the Eastern Front.
By 1942 British night defenses were too strong for Germany to attack. That's why during the Baedekker raids they stuck to coastal targets that were poorly defended. Frankly even with this aircraft the British would shoot it down before it could make even a dent in British production. Its much better to use faster aircraft for bombing Britain from 1942 on, because the British are too strong to attack unless you are prepared to take a lot of losses; frankly Germany could not afford to spare even one of these aircraft to unnecessary losses in 1942-4.
Against the Soviets, whose air defenses around vital targets like their oil, electrical infrastructure, and Ural production is weak (they didn't really have radar until 1943 and then really didn't have a defense system in place by war's end) so is much more vulnerable and there is far less threat to the He177B. So for cost effectiveness attacking the USSR with this aircraft is much higher, especially as the Soviets were really the main threat and anything that could damage their production would matter much more than bombing Britain, which really was unsuppressable by 1942 thanks to Lend-Lease.
 
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