He 111 given more production capacity 1939

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Deleted member 1487

Even if they only impact production and refinement capacity by, say, 10-20% that's going to have serious impact on the Soviet war effort and could buy the Germans more time. It won't be a war-winner by itself but with the right circumstances could force a stalemate.
If the surplus in bombers allow for greater flexibility, the Luftwaffe could go after Soviet electrical infrastructure, which they didn't start withdrawing units to train for until 1943 IOTL and never attempted it because of the need to use their 'strategic' wings for tactical purposes.

Add in the bombing of Soviet logistics in 1943-4, which IOTL stopped after 1942, would hurt the Soviet's ability to launch deep offensives and really rip up German armies.


Some of the He111s could also be converted as torpedo bombers. That should make life harder for the Murmansk convoys.
Very true and they probably would be.
 
Another positive effect to the Luftwaffe of more He111 could be that the upper command would realize that heavy bombers are needed.

Until larger bombers would arrive on the eastern front, the He111 could be used to prevent Russian material reaching the front by bombing the infrastructure further behind the frontline.
 

Deleted member 1487

Another positive effect to the Luftwaffe of more He111 could be that the upper command would realize that heavy bombers are needed.
They realized it IOTL anyway, but developmentally they screwed up their He177 project badly, so that when it was finally read in late 1944-45 it was far too late.

Until larger bombers would arrive on the eastern front, the He111 could be used to prevent Russian material reaching the front by bombing the infrastructure further behind the frontline.

It would have effects before then, but in 1941 would be the year that the He111 and Ju88 production would really bump, so would offer a greater number of bombers overall than IOTL. Having those bombers and keeping more pilots in the air, rather than waiting for their bombers to be fixed, as many did IOTL, would mean the Soviets in 1941-42 would be on the receiving end of more casualties and disruption, saving more Germans during Barbarossa and Case Blue.
 
They realized it IOTL anyway, but developmentally they screwed up their He177 project badly, so that when it was finally read in late 1944-45 it was far too late.

Sure but due to the amount of projects in many directions, they might could focus more on less kind of developments (in aviation) in this part of the war, because there was no real didications on long range bombing at the top.
I assume that there will be many threads about what if the project “Ural bomber” would be continued before the war.
 
Having those bombers and keeping more pilots in the air, rather than waiting for their bombers to be fixed, as many did IOTL, would mean the Soviets in 1941-42 would be on the receiving end of more casualties and disruption, saving more Germans during Barbarossa and Case Blue.

Less repair time is always better, Broken equipment was was a major issue for the Germans (in the east).
 

Deleted member 1487

They realized it IOTL anyway, but developmentally they screwed up their He177 project badly, so that when it was finally read in late 1944-45 it was far too late.

Sure but due to the amount of projects in many directions, they might could focus more on less kind of developments (in aviation) in this part of the war, because there was no real didications on long range bombing at the top.
I assume that there will be many threads about what if the project “Ural bomber” would be continued before the war.

Hitler was constantly asking about the development of long range bombers, but was frustrated with the lack of progress, which was echoed by the majority of the Luftwaffe's top leadership:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_177#Engine_difficulties
Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, angered at the apparent slowness with which the He 177 was having its powerplant problems researched and solved late in August 1942, responded thus to one Oberst Edgar Petersen's report (the Kommandeur der Erprobungstellen) on the He 177's powerplant troubles, remarking on the unusual engine configuration, and the difficulty of maintenance access, of the DB 606"s:

Why has this silly engine suddenly turned up, which is so idiotically welded together? They told me then, there would be two engines connected behind each other, and suddenly there appears this misbegotten monster of welded-together engines one cannot get at!
— Hermann Göring[22]

Nearly four years after Herr Heinkel had unsuccessfully requested two of the prototype He 177 V-series airframes to be built with four individual powerplants, the RLM's requirement for the He 177 to perform diving attacks was finally rescinded in September 1942 by Goering himself,[33] and with that decision finally rendered, Heinkel's design work on the pair of "separately" four-engined versions of the He 177A, the A-8 and A-10, collectively renamed the He 177B in August 1943 were then able to progress, meant to be powered with four individual Daimler-Benz DB 603 engines on new longer-span wings, with each liquid-cooled DB 603 fitted with a Heinkel He 219-style annular radiator right behind the propeller for engine cooling.

By August 1943 much of the detail work for the He 177B series aircraft was well on its way to completion, and Erhard Milch eagerly approved the creation[34] of three He 177B prototypes, designated He 177 V101 to V103, from his statement on August 10:
The He 177A-4 and A-5 will be produced as before. The He 177B-5 will be tackled with vigor. It will be built in series as soon as possible.
— Erhard Milch[34]

Ernst Udet was also critical of the coupled DB 606 powerplant choice for the He 177 from before the war's start, with Göring adding his input from his own frustrations with the seemingly interminable engine problems delaying the introduction of the He 177A into service. Göring was reported as stating in August 1942:

I had told Udet from the start that I wanted this beast with four engines. This crate must have had four engines at some time! Nobody had told me anything about this hocus-pocus with welded-together engines.
— Hermann Göring[8]


The problem was Ernst Üdet, who tried to cancel the project and then converted it into a dive bomber. Supposedly Heinkel, who designed it as a level bomber, was not happy with the twin propellor design and tried to argue for four with four separate engines, but was denied by Üdet. Ultimately for this and many other failures, Üdet committed suicide and then Erhard Milch had to sort things out, which took years. Ultimately he did get the He177 and several other strategic bomber projects operational, but by then too much time had been lost and it was already in the last 8 months of the war.

No more development resources were needed other than time and to drop the coupled engine configuration.
 

Deleted member 1487

Less repair time is always better, Broken equipment was was a major issue for the Germans (in the east).

The problem was most often the lack of spares, which greater focus on producing a unit like the He111 would ensure that more spares are built and more units are around to replace those waiting for spares.
 
They realized it IOTL anyway, but developmentally they screwed up their He177 project badly, so that when it was finally read in late 1944-45 it was far too late.

Sure but due to the amount of projects in many directions, they might could focus more on less kind of developments (in aviation) in this part of the war, because there was no real didications on long range bombing at the top.
I assume that there will be many threads about what if the project “Ural bomber” would be continued before the war.
Interesting that they only had the HE-177 wheras the British had three designs to choose from.
 

Deleted member 1487

Interesting that they only had the HE-177 wheras the British had three designs to choose from.

The Luftwaffe ordered several companies to provide designs for the Bomber A specification and Ernst Üdet picked only Heinkel to build a prototype of their design. Thus the original sin once again come back to Üdet.
 
Hitler was constantly asking about the development of long range bombers, but was frustrated with the lack of progress, which was echoed by the majority of the Luftwaffe's top leadership: .

That only resulted in many changes in the demands and quick solutions on the drawing board, with less quality as the outcome.

The problem was Ernst Üdet, who tried to cancel the project and then converted it into a dive bomber. Supposedly Heinkel, who designed it as a level bomber, was not happy with the twin propellor design and tried to argue for four with four separate engines, but was denied by Üdet. Ultimately for this and many other failures, Üdet committed suicide and then Erhard Milch had to sort things out, which took years. Ultimately he did get the He177 and several other strategic bomber projects operational, but by then too much time had been lost and it was already in the last 8 months of the war.

No more development resources were needed other than time and to drop the coupled engine configuration.

In general the problems started when the first leaders of the armed forces died (e.g. Wever) and where replaced by followers of Hitler.
 

Deleted member 1487

That only resulted in many changes in the demands and quick solutions on the drawing board, with less quality as the outcome.
AFAIK that had little to do with the He177 and its development problems. Too much time was spent trying to make dive bombing and its engines work, which was Üdet's fault, no one else's.

In general the problems started when the first leaders of the armed forces died (e.g. Wever) and where replaced by followers of Hitler.
Wever was an enthusiastic Nazi. The problem was the promotion of Üdet, which was a powerplay by Göring, who was trying to push Erhard Milch out of the way, who was a favorite of Hitler's and very very skilled. Not removing Milch, even with Wever dead and his team replaced, would probably still have avoided some of the problems with production and development.
 
Wever was an enthusiastic Nazi. The problem was the promotion of Üdet, which was a powerplay by Göring, who was trying to push Erhard Milch out of the way, who was a favorite of Hitler's and very very skilled. Not removing Milch, even with Wever dead and his team replaced, would probably still have avoided some of the problems with production and development.

So the dive bombing wish of Udet and Goering was the source of the problems, although the Junkers Ju-87 was the exception. If the other programs were aborted or not started at all, there would be a better balanced Luftwaffe.
 

Deleted member 1487

So the dive bombing wish of Udet and Goering was the source of the problems, although the Junkers Ju-87 was the exception. If the other programs were aborted or not started at all, there would be a better balanced Luftwaffe.

The Ju87 project preceded Üdet. The LW was interested in that long before his affiliation in any way with LW development.
The problem with the Ju88 and He177 having diving was that they were not designed to do so originally and were altered to do something the design was not designed to handle. The He177 had to do so to avoid being cancelled, as Üdet gave Heinkel and ultimatum about the design.
Which other aircraft programs are you referring to?

The He177 did not suffer from lack of resources at all. If the choice for the He177 was OTL version which was never ready, yet over 1200 were built and sat around, I'd say it was better to cancel it and hope that the Ju290 would be ready by 1943. In fact I'd say given the situation of the Luftwaffe IOTL they should have not built any strategic bombers and focused on their twin engine bombers instead. The amount of labor, material, and factory space/machine tools save from skipping the He177 project could have meant a lot more bombers and fighters in 1942-44.
 
The Ju87 project preceded Üdet. The LW was interested in that long before his affiliation in any way with LW development.
The problem with the Ju88 and He177 having diving was that they were not designed to do so originally and were altered to do something the design was not designed to handle. The He177 had to do so to avoid being cancelled, as Üdet gave Heinkel and ultimatum about the design.
Which other aircraft programs are you referring to?

The He177 did not suffer from lack of resources at all. If the choice for the He177 was OTL version which was never ready, yet over 1200 were built and sat around, I'd say it was better to cancel it and hope that the Ju290 would be ready by 1943. In fact I'd say given the situation of the Luftwaffe IOTL they should have not built any strategic bombers and focused on their twin engine bombers instead. The amount of labor, material, and factory space/machine tools save from skipping the He177 project could have meant a lot more bombers and fighters in 1942-44.

Cancel the heavy?!! The He-177 may have had some crazy gremlins but as an American, when it comes to bombers, I've always believed that bigger is typically better. Anway, what about something intermediate in size between the 111 and 177? A pseudo-strategic bomber.

By the way, the He-177 did suffer from a lack of resources: they only made half the number of required propellers!
 
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The Ju87 project preceded Üdet. The LW was interested in that long before his affiliation in any way with LW development.
The problem with the Ju88 and He177 having diving was that they were not designed to do so originally and were altered to do something the design was not designed to handle. The He177 had to do so to avoid being cancelled, as Üdet gave Heinkel and ultimatum about the design.
Which other aircraft programs are you referring to?

I was referring to the multi-role aircraft like the Ju-88 and the BF-110

The He177 did not suffer from lack of resources at all. If the choice for the He177 was OTL version which was never ready, yet over 1200 were built and sat around, I'd say it was better to cancel it and hope that the Ju290 would be ready by 1943. In fact I'd say given the situation of the Luftwaffe IOTL they should have not built any strategic bombers and focused on their twin engine bombers instead. The amount of labor, material, and factory space/machine tools save from skipping the He177 project could have meant a lot more bombers and fighters in 1942-44.

You have a point, they better could have focused on what the already had (medium bombers) and improve that, so no resources were wasted on trails with new concepts
Maybe they never had thought about the Me-262 as a bomber at all, although that’s off topic in this thread.
 

Deleted member 1487

They needed to do some real damage in the blitz and the 111 wasn't going to cut it. The He-177 may have had some crazy gremlins but when it comes to bombers, I've always believed that bigger is usually better. Anway, what about something intermediate in size between the 111 and 177? A mini-heavy so to speak.

Like the Do217? It required the BMW 801 engines to be ready, which they weren't really until 1942, when the overheating problems were worked out.
 

Deleted member 1487

I was referring to the multi-role aircraft like the Ju-88 and the BF-110
Even with the dive bombing modification the Ju88 was well worth keeping. The Bf110 not so much; replace it with the Fw187. But then it was Goering's pet project and all of Wever's pleading didn't get it cancelled.

You have a point, they better could have focused on what the already had (medium bombers) and improve that, so no resources were wasted on trails with new concepts
Maybe they never had thought about the Me-262 as a bomber at all, although that’s off topic in this thread.
I don't mean that no new concepts should be worked on, but they shouldn't have started building them before they were proven: examples are the He177 and Me210.

The Me262 didn't suffer from the bomber diversion, as the engines weren't ready until 1944 anyway, but that's a whole different topic.
 
Like the Do217? It required the BMW 801 engines to be ready, which they weren't really until 1942, when the overheating problems were worked out.
1. That's almost enough time if the He111 thing worked out.
2. It couldn't have been as bad as the DB-606.
3. There had to have been some kind of short term compromise.
 
1. That's almost enough time if the He111 thing worked out.
2. It couldn't have been as bad as the DB-606.
3. There had to have been some interim compromise.

What if the Dornier Do-217 would have won the contract for long-range bomber instead of the Heinkel He177, without the demand of dive bombing capabilities? Then there would have been much in common with an excising aircraft family.
 
What if the Dornier Do-217 would have won the contract for long-range bomber instead of the Heinkel He177, without the demand of dive bombing capabilities? Then there would have been much in common with an excising aircraft family.
You mean the Do-317 right? I'd never heard of it before but it sounds like a a solid idea. Anybody know anything about that plane?
 
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