This link also includes a scheme for a Hercules powered Hurricane, but it dates from 1941.
Hawker Hurricane even more prolific and versatile?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
This link also includes a scheme for a Hercules powered Hurricane, but it dates from 1941.
Battle will certainly meet the range requirement (it carried in excess of 200 imp gals), and it will do well in general recon role. Hurricane can have extra fuel once the mods are in place.
I'd make Hapdens instead of Beaufort, as well as instead of Botha.
This is from National Archives File AIR.20/67 the same file that the table in Post 92 came from and is also dated October 1936.
This is from National Archives File AIR.20/67 the same file that the table in Post 92 came from and is also dated October 1936.
Here's a thought.
The Merlin engine was originally considered problematic. The Hurricane's trials was delayed by Merlin unreliability and production was delayed because they decided to wait for the Merlin II engine.
If Rolls Royce solves the Merlin reliability problems earlier we might be able to move up Hurricane production by as much as six months whi h would have its own benefits.
The Merlin engine was originally considered problematic. The Hurricane's trials was delayed by Merlin unreliability and production was delayed because they decided to wait for the Merlin II engine.
If Rolls Royce solves the Merlin reliability problems earlier we might be able to move up Hurricane production by as much as six months whi h would have its own benefits.
Blackburn should have been building Beauforts not the dangerous Botha.
That sir is pure gold
So they could have had a 4 x Oerlikon FFS cannon armed fighter in service for 1939!
I know the FFS is not as good as a HS404 but its lighter and it worked in 1938
Its basically the same gun as the A6m Zero used
Were they though?
I followed the recent TL about Norway developing more of a defense and prevailing, with lot of Allied help mostly but not entirely British of course, against Hitler's attempted invasion. This, since I was emphasizing air power a lot more than the author who was mainly concerned with naval units, led me to read up on what the RN FAA actually had on hand in early 1940, and it boiled down, in the fighter department, to mostly Skuas--and Sea Gladiators. Now Skuas I gather are two-seater planes all right, and overall it seemed with these two planes being the only options, the Skuas were indeed the better plane. (Neither could stand up well to top notch German landplane fighters like the Bf-109E, so my big enthusiasm was trying to argue the British would pour in Spitfires and Hurricanes by self-ferrying them from Scotland to Bergen, the longer-legged Spitfires escorting the fuel-limited Hurricanes--until these could be refueled, then they could mix with the Germans too. The author and I at least agreed that the Hurricane, due to its field-ruggedness, relative simplicity and similarities to types the Norwegians would be familiar with, would be the workhorse fighter once based in Norway, hopefully replacing the Gladiators that were all the British dispatched OTL, lacking a secure base in Bergen). But in fact a fair number of carriers were carrying a fair number of Sea Gladiators, and these were of course single seat.
As noted, it does seem the RN downplayed the Sea Gladiators and favored the Skuas, as they should just from considerations of which was closer to being able to engage the better Axis planes. Nevertheless, there they were, not phased out until the RN was able to obtain Grumman Wildcats aka "Martlets," which were also single-seaters.
The sensible conclusion seems to me to be that what prevailed in RN FAA procurement circles was a mixed force doctrine, with Skuas supplemented by shorter-range Sea Gladiators, presumably to augment the defense of the carriers rather than to go on long sea sorties.
As noted, it does seem the RN downplayed the Sea Gladiators and favored the Skuas, as they should just from considerations of which was closer to being able to engage the better Axis planes. Nevertheless, there they were, not phased out until the RN was able to obtain Grumman Wildcats aka "Martlets," which were also single-seaters.
The sensible conclusion seems to me to be that what prevailed in RN FAA procurement circles was a mixed force doctrine, with Skuas supplemented by shorter-range Sea Gladiators, presumably to augment the defense of the carriers rather than to go on long sea sorties.
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FFS (from the S line) was the big one; size, weight and muzzle velocity were on par with Hispano.
Zero started with the small one (F line) and had the medium one (L line) from mid-war on.
(Oerlikon API family tree)
But, at any rate, if there was a fighter well suitable for carrying cannons in the wing in late 1930s, that was Hurricane due to it's wing being of such generous dimensions. Even two cannons per fighter in 1939-40 make a difference vs. OTL.
This is the perfect answerOr just go with Wellingtons for both roles:
However aircraft development being what it was at the time usually had 2 or 3 competing designs for the same role being put into production.
In this case Wellington (11,461), Whitley (1,814) and Hampdon (1,430) - with the Wellington being the obvious winner of that trio and still in service into the 50s
The risk of picking just one design earlier than OTL runs the risk of that design not being as good as expected or issues with the design delaying its introduction which happened to all the nations quite frequently
To be fair to the Hampden and Whitley the main reason why the Wellington was built for so long and in such large numbers was that it's planned replacement, the Vickers Warwick, was a looser. The Hampden was replaced by the Halifax and Armstrong-Whitworth was able to stop building the Whitley in favour of the Lancaster.
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I'm doing my version of Eric Morecambe's rendition of Grieg's Piano Concerto here - that is I'm writing the right posts in the wrong order.
The Hawker Hurricane in Belgian Service
The placing of bulk orders for Hurricanes with Avro, Gloster, Hawker and Westland in June 1936 allowed the British aircraft industry meet the requirements of the British air services for fighter aircraft and export more of them.
IOTL Belgium bought 22 Gladiators. According to this website https://www.belgian-wings.be/gloster-gladiator they were ordered in September 1936 and delivered in three batches, that is six in June 1937, nine in September 1937 and seven in March-April 1938. Putnam's Gloster aircraft book says that they were ordered in June 1937 and delivered between September 1937 and May 1938. The Belgian Wings website says that the last 7 were assembled in Belgium and that SABCA had (unsuccessfully) negotiated for a licence to build more.
The second Air Ministry Gloster Gladiator contract was 442476/35 placed in September 1935. It was initially for 186 aircraft with the serials K7892 to K8077. However, at some point 22 aircraft (K8056 to K8077) were deleted from the contract and another 16 with the serials L7608 to L7623 were added. This changed the total ordered to 180 aircraft that were delivered between April 1937 and February 1938.
I suspect that the 22 Gladiators delivered to Belgium were the 22 aircraft that were deleted from Contract 442476/35. However, I haven't found any proof.
The 20 British built Hurricanes ordered by Belgium were delivered in April 1939. They were taken from Contract 527112/36, which was the contract for 600 Hurricanes that were ordered from Hawker in June 1936. The Belgians also ordered 80 Hurricanes to be built under licence by SABCA. According to the only source that I have they were ordered in March 1939, but only handful had been delivered before the Germans invaded. AFAIK 22 Hurricanes when the Germans invaded, which included the surviving Hawker built aircraft, the few that SABCA had completed and some interned RAF Hurricanes that had been impressed into Belgian service.
The Belgian Government ordered Fiat CR.42s in December 1939. They were delivered from March 1940. Sources differ over the number that was ordered. Some say 34 and others 40. The truth could be that 40 were ordered and 34 were delivered.
The Belgian Government ordered Brewster Buffaloes in December 1939. Most sources say that they ordered 40, but Green & Fricker say that they ordered 80. However, one was captured by the Germans at Bordeaux, 6 were marooned on Martinique and the rest were delivered to the RAF. Green & Fricker also said that the Belgians negotiated for Fiat G.50 fighters.
According to Green & Fricker the Aeronautique Militaire (or Aviation Militaire the sources differ) had 16 squadrons which were organised into groups of 2 squadrons and then into regiments of two or three groups. Squadrons seem to have had an establishment of 15 aircraft, for example the source I used for the Fiat CR.42 said that 30 aircraft were used to equip 2 squadrons and the rest went into reserve. However, most of the squadrons were understrength.
According to Green & Fricker 180 aircraft were available on 10th May 1940 as follows:
Note: The Niehorster website says that there were six squadrons in No. 3 Regiment instead of four. He says that they were equipped with Battles, Fireflies, GR.8s, Moranes, SV-5s and 3-engined Savoias.
After much head-scratching I failed to find a satisfactory way to have Hurricanes built instead of the first two Gladiator contracts. However, the Belgian Government could have ordered 22 Hurricanes from Hawker Siddeley that could have been taken from the Air Ministry contract for 389 Hurricanes ordered from Avro in June 1936 or the order for 400 Hurricanes placed with Gloster the same month. There's no way that they could be delivered between June 1937 and April 1938, but if the Belgian Government was prepared to wait they could all be delivered in one batch in the second quarter of 1938.
ITTL the Belgian Government would have concluded an agreement to build Hurricanes under licence by the end of May 1938 that took the place of the abortive attempt to build Gladiators under licence IOTL. This is about a year before the OTL order for 80 Hurricanes from SABCA (Source: http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation history/WW2/belg Air Force.htm). This head start aught to enable SABCA to deliver the eightieth aircraft by May 1940.
The RAF had much larger stocks of Hurricanes in the winter of 1939-40 and it was being produced in greater numbers. The Belgian Government bought 80 of them in December 1939 in place of its OTL orders for 40 Buffaloes and 40 CR.42s. HMG could offer earlier deliveries than Brewster and Fiat plus it reduced the number of types that the Aviation Militaire had to incorporate into its order of battle. The 80 aircraft were delivered before the Germans invaded.
More Hurricanes might have been ordered from Britain between December 1939 and May 1940, but none of them would have been delivered. Similarly, it's likely that more aircraft were ordered from SABCA ITTL, but none of them had been delivered before 10th May 1940.
ITTL Belgium had received 202 Hurricanes from all sources by 10th May 1940. Some of them would have been written-off before then, but I think that there would have been enough left to equip ten squadrons at full-strength. That is the six fighter squadrons of OTL and four of the Fairey Fox reconnaissance squadrons. That would have reduced the total number of Fox squadrons from nine with 97 aircraft to three with 45 aircraft. Thus the TTL version of Green & Fricker would say that the Aeronautique Militaire had 227 aircraft in 16 squadrons instead of 180 aircraft in 16 squadrons.
Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe destroyed many of the 139 extra Hurricanes in the Belgian front-line before they could take off. Therefore, they didn't fulfil their potential.
The Hawker Hurricane in Belgian Service
The placing of bulk orders for Hurricanes with Avro, Gloster, Hawker and Westland in June 1936 allowed the British aircraft industry meet the requirements of the British air services for fighter aircraft and export more of them.
IOTL Belgium bought 22 Gladiators. According to this website https://www.belgian-wings.be/gloster-gladiator they were ordered in September 1936 and delivered in three batches, that is six in June 1937, nine in September 1937 and seven in March-April 1938. Putnam's Gloster aircraft book says that they were ordered in June 1937 and delivered between September 1937 and May 1938. The Belgian Wings website says that the last 7 were assembled in Belgium and that SABCA had (unsuccessfully) negotiated for a licence to build more.
The second Air Ministry Gloster Gladiator contract was 442476/35 placed in September 1935. It was initially for 186 aircraft with the serials K7892 to K8077. However, at some point 22 aircraft (K8056 to K8077) were deleted from the contract and another 16 with the serials L7608 to L7623 were added. This changed the total ordered to 180 aircraft that were delivered between April 1937 and February 1938.
I suspect that the 22 Gladiators delivered to Belgium were the 22 aircraft that were deleted from Contract 442476/35. However, I haven't found any proof.
The 20 British built Hurricanes ordered by Belgium were delivered in April 1939. They were taken from Contract 527112/36, which was the contract for 600 Hurricanes that were ordered from Hawker in June 1936. The Belgians also ordered 80 Hurricanes to be built under licence by SABCA. According to the only source that I have they were ordered in March 1939, but only handful had been delivered before the Germans invaded. AFAIK 22 Hurricanes when the Germans invaded, which included the surviving Hawker built aircraft, the few that SABCA had completed and some interned RAF Hurricanes that had been impressed into Belgian service.
The Belgian Government ordered Fiat CR.42s in December 1939. They were delivered from March 1940. Sources differ over the number that was ordered. Some say 34 and others 40. The truth could be that 40 were ordered and 34 were delivered.
The Belgian Government ordered Brewster Buffaloes in December 1939. Most sources say that they ordered 40, but Green & Fricker say that they ordered 80. However, one was captured by the Germans at Bordeaux, 6 were marooned on Martinique and the rest were delivered to the RAF. Green & Fricker also said that the Belgians negotiated for Fiat G.50 fighters.
According to Green & Fricker the Aeronautique Militaire (or Aviation Militaire the sources differ) had 16 squadrons which were organised into groups of 2 squadrons and then into regiments of two or three groups. Squadrons seem to have had an establishment of 15 aircraft, for example the source I used for the Fiat CR.42 said that 30 aircraft were used to equip 2 squadrons and the rest went into reserve. However, most of the squadrons were understrength.
According to Green & Fricker 180 aircraft were available on 10th May 1940 as follows:
Note: The Niehorster website says that there were six squadrons in No. 3 Regiment instead of four. He says that they were equipped with Battles, Fireflies, GR.8s, Moranes, SV-5s and 3-engined Savoias.
After much head-scratching I failed to find a satisfactory way to have Hurricanes built instead of the first two Gladiator contracts. However, the Belgian Government could have ordered 22 Hurricanes from Hawker Siddeley that could have been taken from the Air Ministry contract for 389 Hurricanes ordered from Avro in June 1936 or the order for 400 Hurricanes placed with Gloster the same month. There's no way that they could be delivered between June 1937 and April 1938, but if the Belgian Government was prepared to wait they could all be delivered in one batch in the second quarter of 1938.
ITTL the Belgian Government would have concluded an agreement to build Hurricanes under licence by the end of May 1938 that took the place of the abortive attempt to build Gladiators under licence IOTL. This is about a year before the OTL order for 80 Hurricanes from SABCA (Source: http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation history/WW2/belg Air Force.htm). This head start aught to enable SABCA to deliver the eightieth aircraft by May 1940.
The RAF had much larger stocks of Hurricanes in the winter of 1939-40 and it was being produced in greater numbers. The Belgian Government bought 80 of them in December 1939 in place of its OTL orders for 40 Buffaloes and 40 CR.42s. HMG could offer earlier deliveries than Brewster and Fiat plus it reduced the number of types that the Aviation Militaire had to incorporate into its order of battle. The 80 aircraft were delivered before the Germans invaded.
More Hurricanes might have been ordered from Britain between December 1939 and May 1940, but none of them would have been delivered. Similarly, it's likely that more aircraft were ordered from SABCA ITTL, but none of them had been delivered before 10th May 1940.
ITTL Belgium had received 202 Hurricanes from all sources by 10th May 1940. Some of them would have been written-off before then, but I think that there would have been enough left to equip ten squadrons at full-strength. That is the six fighter squadrons of OTL and four of the Fairey Fox reconnaissance squadrons. That would have reduced the total number of Fox squadrons from nine with 97 aircraft to three with 45 aircraft. Thus the TTL version of Green & Fricker would say that the Aeronautique Militaire had 227 aircraft in 16 squadrons instead of 180 aircraft in 16 squadrons.
Unfortunately, the Luftwaffe destroyed many of the 139 extra Hurricanes in the Belgian front-line before they could take off. Therefore, they didn't fulfil their potential.
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As opposed to Canada, which actually makes sense & is enormously easier politically? Yes, I think the same of licence production in Oz: an excellent idea.
I also really like the idea of Avro & B-P building Hurris, & going on 800 more being in service 3 Sept '39.
Can I suggest some of small feature improvements?
The obvious one is wider-track gear; can that be done by swapping the gear legs L/R & retracting outward? Or does that require substantial re-engineering? (Beyond relocating some of the guns, which might not be ideal from a "battery focus" standpoint.)
Another, equally obvious, is the bubble canopy. That might take a bit of explaining... Getting rid of the razorback shouldn't be too hard; making up the keel area with a fin extension should handle it.
One really good one (working with Rolls, Vickers, & AEC) would be FI for the Merlin. (I pick Vickers & AEC for their experience with diesel solid injection.)
Finally, a bit of a long shot (if an FI Merlin isn't enough
) is an extreme long range variant. (Unabashed plug. )Edit:
One nutty idea? Add a couple of cheek & cowl guns for strafing. (If that isn't too heavy for the Cg range.)
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...
The obvious one is wider-track gear; can that be done by swapping the gear legs L/R & retracting outward? Or does that require substantial re-engineering? (Beyond relocating some of the guns, which might not be ideal from a "battery focus" standpoint.)
Another, equally obvious, is the bubble canopy. That might take a bit of explaining... Getting rid of the razorback shouldn't be too hard; making up the keel area with a fin extension should handle it.
One really good one (working with Rolls, Vickers, & AEC) would be FI for the Merlin. (I pick Vickers & AEC for their experience with diesel solid injection.)
Finally, a bit of a long shot (if an FI Merlin isn't enough
Edit:
One nutty idea? Add a couple of cheek & cowl guns for strafing. (If that isn't too heavy for the Cg range.)
Long range Hurricane with or without the bubble canopy is a good call. OTOH - Hurricane already featured a wide-track U/C and a lot of machine guns for strafing.
Fuel injected Merlin is a good proposal, it would've removed the horrible float-type carb = more power and better mileage; also removes the need for ice guard in front of ram air intake = again more power. The injection carb is a good in-between solution, it gave extra 10 mph of speed and 1500 feet of ceiling to the Spitfire V vs. float-type carb.
You may recognise this from a post that I included in a recent post on another thread. It's a quote on the Air Britain Book on The British Air Commission and Lend-Lease.
It continued...
Before I reading the above my opinion was that the British Government wouldn't consider ordering aircraft from the Dominions until after the Munich Crisis which is sort of when the object of the rearmament changed from deterring the Axis powers to fighting a war against them.
However, I now think that the OTL orders for 40 Hurricanes and 80 Hampdens could have been brought forward from November 1938 to November 1937 had the British and Canadian Governments "got their fingers out" after the 1937 Imperial Conference. It would have helped if the contracts had been accompanied by an order for 200 Merlin engines to be built in Canada for these aircraft. (The Wellington was redesigned for the Hercules, Merlin and Twin Wasp so I don't see why a Merlin-Hampden couldn't be done.)
1,451 Hurricanes were built in Canada 1940-43 IOTL. That is 76 in 1940, 511 in 1941, 700 in 1942 and 164 in 1943. Based on that there's the potential for at least 2,145 between 1939 and 1943 ITTL with the extra 700 aircraft built 1939-41.
The French might be persuaded to place bulk contracts for Canadian-built Hurricanes in place of their TTL orders for Curtiss Hawks. That would be good for the RAF when the contracts were taken over in June 1940. The aircraft could be put into service sooner than the American aircraft that were taken over plus the considerable advantages of not having to train the pilots and ground crews to operate a new aircraft and a simplified supply chain.
While we're at it the National Steel Car Company can build 225 Hurricanes instead of 225 Lysanders. I'd suggested that Canadian Vickers could have built Short Sunderlands instead of the Supermarine Stranraers and Consolidated Catalinas that they built IOTL. It would have been better if the Canadians had ordered Fairey Swordfish from Boeing Canada instead of Blackburn Sharks because I think the British Government would have ordered some from this firm for the FAA.
Finally, IOTL the British Government ordered 200 North American Harvard advanced trainers and 200 Lockheed Hudsons (which it intended to use as navigation trainers) from the USA in 1938. ITTL I want 200 Miles Master advanced trainers and a GR version of the Hampden or failing that 200 Avro Ansons ordered from Canada in their place.
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Wider track landing gear is easy. This was done with the Henley to allow for there to be a fuselage bomb bay. If similar arrangement was made in the Hurricane the extra space in the fuselage could be used to hold additional fuel.
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The 136 Blackburn Rocs were built by Boulton Paul too. We could have them build 136 Sea Hurricanes with folding wings instead alongside the "land Hurricanes" that they were building instead of the Defiant.
Given that the Hurricane could be put into production at Boulton Paul earlier than the Defiant given its more advanced state of development the factory might have the capacity to build another 190 Sea Hurricanes in place of the Blackburn Roc. That would allow Blackburn to concentrate on its other contracts.
Unfortunately, the other work of the time IOTL was the Botha. However, I would have had the firm build the GR Blenheim Mk III (Bolingbroke) or a GR version of the Hampden instead. Both aircraft were ahead of the Botha in development so there was a better chance to get them into service by March 1939 (which was the plan for the Botha and Beaufort IOTL).
I seem to recall that there was a general abandonment of Cowl guns in British fighter aircraft due to the desire high ROF and the increasing complexity of the gearing necessary for interrupter gearing that would 'impose' upon the super charger and other 'gubbins'.As opposed to Canada, which actually makes sense & is enormously easier politically? Yes, I think the same of licence production in Oz: an excellent idea.
I also really like the idea of Avro & B-P building Hurris, & going on 800 more being in service 3 Sept '39.
Can I suggest some of small feature improvements?
The obvious one is wider-track gear; can that be done by swapping the gear legs L/R & retracting outward? Or does that require substantial re-engineering? (Beyond relocating some of the guns, which might not be ideal from a "battery focus" standpoint.)
Another, equally obvious, is the bubble canopy. That might take a bit of explaining... Getting rid of the razorback shouldn't be too hard; making up the keel area with a fin extension should handle it.
One really good one (working with Rolls, Vickers, & AEC) would be FI for the Merlin. (I pick Vickers & AEC for their experience with diesel solid injection.)
Finally, a bit of a long shot (if an FI Merlin isn't enough
Edit:
One nutty idea? Add a couple of cheek & cowl guns for strafing. (If that isn't too heavy for the Cg range.)
Not sure what you intend with the change to landing gear?
The Hurricane Landing gear already folds 'inwards' opposite to the Spitfire so already benefits from a wider under carriage - unless you mean spaced even further apart?
What was 1st done with Henley, wrt. the landing gear placement, was to design and made a bigger wing (probably by making the wing 'plugs). Wing area went from already too big 260 sq ft to the Hellcat-worthy 342 sq fw, contributing in Henley being 20 mph slower than the Hurricane.