Hawker Hurricane even more prolific and versatile?

[Peg Leg Pom]

A bit of a wildcard and I admit extremely unlikely for largely political reasons.

Belgium and Yugoslavia both had licences to produce the Hurricane. Both countries were conquered by Germany. Now the Luftwaffe didn't think much of the Hurricane as a fighter, but they had a problem. Their primary ground attack aircraft the JU 87 was a death trap if enemy fighters turned up. By 1941 the Hurricane was increasingly being used as a fighter bomber and could at least defend itself against enemy fighters. So in theory the Germans could have used captured production facilities that were already set up to build Hurricanes to build their own Hurribombers, though they'd have to use DB601 engines.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

With a 1934 start date, does this twin-engine fighter start with rifle-caliber machine guns as the planned armament?

Yes. My guess is eight to twelve 0.303" in the wings or nose plus another four in the turret.

If there's room in the nose, or elsewhere, the armament could change later.

Yes. I think that four to six Hispano 20mm cannon could be fitted around the time that cannon armed Hurricanes and Spitfires appeared. It might also be possible to replace the Merlin engines with Griffons in the second half of the war.

Maybe an earlier Gloster Reaper, or a DeHavilland entry based on the DH.88 Comet, using Merlins?

An earlier Gloster Reaper with Merlin engines is the route that I usually take. The RAF orders a pair of prototypes of this aircraft from Gloster instead of the pair of G.38s that were ordered IOTL. That's because:

• The two Reaper prototypes of OTL were built to Specification F.9/37.
• AIUI this aircraft was based on the aircraft that Gloster designed to meet Specification F.34/35. A single Gloster F.34/35 was ordered, but the British Aircraft Specifications File says that its development was abandoned in favour of the Defiant.
• The Gloster F.34/35 was in turn based on the aircraft that Gloster designed to meet Specification F.5/33 which was issued to tender on 22nd December 1933.

The only problem is that the OTL version of the F.5/33 was designed around two Bristol Aquila engines. Therefore, the TTL specification would have to require that the aircraft have two engines in the 1,000hp class.

 

[Driftless]

A bit of a wildcard and I admit extremely unlikely for largely political reasons.

Belgium and Yugoslavia both had licences to produce the Hurricane. Both countries were conquered by Germany. Now the Luftwaffe didn't think much of the Hurricane as a fighter, but they had a problem. Their primary ground attack aircraft the JU 87 was a death trap if enemy fighters turned up. By 1941 the Hurricane was increasingly being used as a fighter bomber and could at least defend itself against enemy fighters. So in theory the Germans could have used captured production facilities that were already set up to build Hurricanes to build their own Hurribombers, though they'd have to use DB601 engines.

I'd like to see a DB601 engined Hurricane/Hurrikan

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Perhaps have Air Ministry Spec F.37/35 dictate the requirement for a twin engine fighter and demand the engine be 2 Merlin's earlier (in order to provide a common engine between the expected fighters) with a cannon armament also dictated earlier.

This might allow for the delays that impacted Whirlwinds entry into service (namely the decision to use Peregrines) to be butterflied

They could, but it might not be necessary. There were a few specifications for twin engine fighters that were around in the middle 1930s which for various reasons didn't result in any hardware. I think it would be easier to alter one of those to produce a better substitute for the Defiant, which is what I've suggested in Post 82.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd like to see a DB601 engined Hurricane/Hurrikan

Here.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I'd like to see a DB601 engined Hurricane/Hurrikan

Here you go, and it's not a fantasy concept. The Yugoslavs built one for testing and it performed just as well as a standard Hurricane.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Perhaps have Air Ministry Spec F.37/35 dictate the requirement for a twin engine fighter and demand the engine be 2 Merlin's earlier (in order to provide a common engine between the expected fighters) with a cannon armament also dictated earlier.

This might allow for the delays that impacted Whirlwinds entry into service (namely the decision to use Peregrines) to be butterflied

I'm not a fan of the Whirlwind either. I'm going to suggest that Westland builds Hurricanes instead of the Lysander and Whirlwind before re-tooling to build Spitfires.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'm going to suggest that Westland builds Hurricanes instead of the Lysander and Whirlwind before re-tooling to build Spitfires.

Make Spitfires from day one?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Out of curiosity where did you get that from? Certainly the original specification was written due to concerns that a bomber stream was too tough a target for fixed gun fighters to cope with. Equally I've no doubt that once they had the damned things the RAF were happy to palm them off onto the BEF and keep the proper fighters for Home Defence.

But I've not seen anything to see anyone thought they were actually any good against enemy fighters, so if you have a source for that I'd find it an interesting read.

I thought that I had it in one of my National Archives transcripts and that there as a MS Paint document that I'd done for an earlier thread ready. Except I haven't found either.

If memory serves me correctly it was of the wartime establishment of the Metropolitan Air Force. The nine Defiant squadrons would be sent to France and form No. 14 (Fighter) Group.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

As well as Belgium and Yugoslavia it would not have been unreasonable for a licence to produce Hurricanes to have been sold to Finland pre war. They were sold a licence to build Blenhiems after all.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Make Spitfires from day one?

Only if this thread was called Supermarine Spitfire even more prolific and versatile. If it was I'd advocate the building of Spitfires by Boulton Paul instead of the Defiant and get Gloster and Hawker to build it instead of the Hurricane, Henley and as many Gladiators as possible.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

This transcript is from National Archives File AIR.20/67.

 

[sparky42]

I wonder if Ireland had taken up the offer to use the Air Ministry purchasing plan/training as suggested by the CID in 1938 maybe you get a squadron in the Irish Air Corps before WW2.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I'd like to see a DB601 engined Hurricane/Hurrikan

Here.

And here.

K5083 - Hurricane Projects

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Perhaps have Air Ministry Spec F.37/35 dictate the requirement for a twin engine fighter and demand the engine be 2 Merlin's earlier (in order to provide a common engine between the expected fighters) with a cannon armament also dictated earlier.

This might allow for the delays that impacted Whirlwinds entry into service (namely the decision to use Peregrines) to be butterflied

This link includes Hawkers proposal for a four cannon Hurricane to meet Specification F.37/35. Had the Air Ministry accepted this instead of the Whirlwind could we have had cannon armed Hurricanes in service sooner?

K5083 - Hurricane Projects

 

[tomo pauk]

This link includes Hawkers proposal for a four cannon Hurricane to meet Specification F.37/35. Had the Air Ministry accepted this instead of the Whirlwind could we have had cannon armed Hurricanes in service sooner?

K5083 - Hurricane Projects

Good idea, and probably would've worked.
FWIW, UK making a deal with Oerlikon by 1935-36 instead of waiting for Hispano would've been a major boon for both RAF and USAAF/USN in ww2.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Have Blackburn make those instead of 560 Bothas.

That's not an option because the RAF had a requirement for hundreds of T.B.G.R. aircraft. If they don't order hundreds of Bothas from Blackburn its going to be hundreds of a different type of maritime patrol aircraft.

 

[sonofpegasus]

FWIIW. In 1937 Bristol Aircraft instead of buying a Northrop Model 8A-1 as a test bed for the Hercules, they are supplied a Henley by the AM. This aircraft attracts the attention of the FAA. Bristol show the FAA the plans for the Hercules power egg. Admiral Henderson has a lightbulb moment and realizes the advantages of a power egg system for the FAA. Prototypes are built of the Sea Henley, Fighter Bomber. Hawker sea Hurricane single seat fighter, Hotspur Turreted fighter and finally the Hotspur based two seat Hooligan fighter. All four aircraft use the same outer universal wing and the Hercules engine egg. Yes I will show myself out the door!!!

 

[tomo pauk]

That's not an option because the RAF had a requirement for hundreds of T.B.G.R. aircraft. If they don't order hundreds of Bothas from Blackburn its going to be hundreds of a different type of maritime patrol aircraft.

Botha was also ordered as a torpedo bomber. Battle, or in this case, Hurricane as a torpedo bomber FTW (I've suggested mods to enable torpedo further up thread).

FWIIW. In 1937 Bristol Aircraft instead of buying a Northrop Model 8A-1 as a test bed for the Hercules, they are supplied a Henley by the AM. This aircraft attracts the attention of the FAA. Bristol show the FAA the plans for the Hercules power egg. Admiral Henderson has a lightbulb moment and realizes the advantages of a power egg system for the FAA. Prototypes are built of the Sea Henley, Fighter Bomber. Hawker sea Hurricane single seat fighter, Hotspur Turreted fighter and finally the Hotspur based two seat Hooligan fighter. All four aircraft use the same outer universal wing and the Hercules engine egg. Yes I will show myself out the door!!!

Hurricane with Hercules is IMO excellent idea.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Botha was also ordered as a torpedo bomber. Battle, or in this case, Hurricane as a torpedo bomber FTW (I've suggested mods to enable torpedo further up thread).

The RAF tried to combine the torpedo bomber and general reconnaissance requirements in a single aircraft. That's why the table in Post 92 says Blackburn T.B.G.R. or Bristol 152, which were the Botha and Beaufort.

Modified Battles and Hurricanes won't meet the range requirement and you still need hundreds of GR aircraft.

I wouldn't try to combine the T.B. and G.R. roles in a single airframe. Instead I'd order Hampdens for the TB squadrons in Scheme F and Wellingtons equip the GR squadrons. They're further ahead in development than the Beaufort and Botha so it's more likely that they will be delivered on time.