Have the legitament hoenstafurn line not die out

Philip of Swabia and Henry VI were both sons of Frederick I Barbarossa (Henry VI was his 2nd son and Philip his 5th son).
The Staufer claim on Sicily came from the marriage of Henry VI with Constance of Sicily.
So in case of any such division it will be the senior Sicilian branch ceding the possessions in the Empire to the junior German/Swabian branch, which (at that point) doesn't have a claim on Sicily.

I don't see henry giving up his German inhertence so easily
 
I don't see henry giving up his German inhertence so easily

Philip was elected after his older brother had died and when Frederick II was still an infant. If he manages to not get assassinated or lives to survive the tale, then Philip might be in a position to force OTL Frederick II, the son of Henry VI and Constance, to accept the fait accompli and be content with his rich Sicilian kingdom.
 
That is true and I can't see henry wasting reasoures for second son when he could be useing the reasoures to turn the monarchy heridtery. But still what would a son between elenor of Britney and henry be?

The son of Eleanor and Henry VI is a spare heir in case Frederick of Sicily dies prematurely.
 
Philip was elected after his older brother had died and when Frederick II was still an infant. If he manages to not get assassinated or lives to survive the tale, then Philip might be in a position to force OTL Frederick II, the son of Henry VI and Constance, to accept the fait accompli and be content with his rich Sicilian kingdom.
Really? Frederick was the primogeniture Staufen candidate, and as much to the point he was Frederick II Hohenstaiufen. Philip should have considered himself lucky if he could persuade Frederick to accept the title of "King of Germany" to Philips HRE
 
Really? Frederick was the primogeniture Staufen candidate, and as much to the point he was Frederick II Hohenstaiufen. Philip should have considered himself lucky if he could persuade Frederick to accept the title of "King of Germany" to Philips HRE

The 'Italian' Frederick was an infant, if Philip survives and manages to position himself in the Empire, then the Princes of the Empire (Reichsfürsten is less cumbersome term) will prefer to follow the German Philip over the Italian Frederick. Furthermore Philip will have the Papacy on his side for a change.
No matter how rich Sicily was, it couldn't take on the Empire, if the Empire would unite. Philip getting a Papal blessing, would be enough to unite enough Guelphs and Ghibellines.
 
The 'Italian' Frederick was an infant, if Philip survives and manages to position himself in the Empire, then the Princes of the Empire (Reichsfürsten is less cumbersome term) will prefer to follow the German Philip over the Italian Frederick. Furthermore Philip will have the Papacy on his side for a change.
No matter how rich Sicily was, it couldn't take on the Empire, if the Empire would unite. Philip getting a Papal blessing, would be enough to unite enough Guelphs and Ghibellines.
Frederick was hardly likely to remain a child all his life and your argument previously seems to be predicated on the idea that at some stage, Frederick will be in a position to assert himself. Otherwise Philip would not need to persuade frederick to remain just King of Sicily
Your faith in the princes of the empire lining up behind Phillip, seems somewhat mystifying, given that in OTL the princes were fickle likely to change their alliances quite regularly and for personal gain. Most of those Princes were raised in an environment of Primogeniture and I'm not as convinced as you seem to be, that they would readily support the division of their lands among their children.
The Guelphs and the Ghiberlines although nominally split into pro papal and pro emperor factions were in fact often motivated by quite different aims.
The Popes found out with Otto IV, and with other monarchs, that election to Imperial office was more than enough to spark an interest in uniting Italy under their control. Maybe Philip would have been different, but I doubt it.
No Hohenstaufen actually seems to have allowed his actions to be dictated by the lack of support of the Popes, and unless hearing of Papal support made Philip die from shock, I doubt that Papal support would have an impact this time. But for the record, the Pope consented to the election of Frederick as King of the Romans and Emperor Elect after Otto IV invaded Italy and asserted his Imperial rights, and so there is no reason to think that any invasion of Italy by Philip would lead to a different Papal response.
 
Philip was elected after his older brother had died and when Frederick II was still an infant. If he manages to not get assassinated or lives to survive the tale, then Philip might be in a position to force OTL Frederick II, the son of Henry VI and Constance, to accept the fait accompli and be content with his rich Sicilian kingdom.

Fredrick giving up his German inhertence is complelty diffrent then henry doing it
 
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Actually a form gavelkind (Realteilung) was a very common practice in the Empire, including brothers ruling the dynastic lands together (in practice that often lead to a division). Primogeniture was an exception.
I'm not implying that the Princes will be doing this because they like Philip. However Frederick II, no matter his Hohenstaufen lineage, will be seen as a foreigner.
Moreover like the Papacy, many Princes might welcome the idea of weakening the Hohenstaufen by supporting such a division. That is an established Philip will be safe enough to keep his imperial lands, especially north of the Alps; his Tuscan duchy will lead to a problems with the Papacy. Still I doubt Frederick II can gather enough support in the Empire.
OTOH I can see the Papacy preferring, if the HRE and Sicily end up staying separated.

Nor was it unheard for that an adult relative was preferred over an infant son. Conrad III wasn't succeeded by his infant son Frederick, but by his cousin Frederick Barbarossa.
Still IOTL Philip had 4 daughters, but no surviving son, so everything ended up in Frederick II's lap anyway (IMHO better for the Hohenstaufen dynasty than the Empire).
 
Actually a form gavelkind (Realteilung) was a very common practice in the Empire, including brothers ruling the dynastic lands together (in practice that often lead to a division). Primogeniture was an exception.
I'm not implying that the Princes will be doing this because they like Philip. However Frederick II, no matter his Hohenstaufen lineage, will be seen as a foreigner.
Moreover like the Papacy, many Princes might welcome the idea of weakening the Hohenstaufen by supporting such a division. That is an established Philip will be safe enough to keep his imperial lands, especially north of the Alps; his Tuscan duchy will lead to a problems with the Papacy. Still I doubt Frederick II can gather enough support in the Empire.
OTOH I can see the Papacy preferring, if the HRE and Sicily end up staying separated.

Nor was it unheard for that an adult relative was preferred over an infant son. Conrad III wasn't succeeded by his infant son Frederick, but by his cousin Frederick Barbarossa.
Still IOTL Philip had 4 daughters, but no surviving son, so everything ended up in Frederick II's lap anyway (IMHO better for the Hohenstaufen dynasty than the Empire).

I was talking about henry not fredrick. Why are you talking about frederick and philip?
 
I was talking about henry not fredrick. Why are you talking about frederick and philip?

It's in line with my previous posts in this thread. Henry VI won't give up anything, but given how young his son and heir Frederick II, when Henry VI died, this IOTL gave a window of opportunity to Philip. To be fair Philip was elected, so he did have supporters in the Empire. However Philip's reign ended with his assassinated, the first monarch of the Empire to fell victim to that.
IMHO during the reigns of Frederick II and Philip a division could end up being a fait accompli.

During the reign of Henry VI a brother could end up being the facto Hohenstaufen representative in the Empire; Philip might qualify for that.
In this example Henry VI, Frederick II and Philip could parallel what IOTL happened with the Habsburgs Charles V, Philip II and Ferdinand I (Ferdinand had been the representative of Charles, long before he succeeded him as Emperor).
This could later result in a more 'permanent' division, especially if the Sicilian branch are too much absentee monarchs.
 
Remember always who primogeniture do not count so much for the title of Holy Roman Emperor because:
a) the title is elective
b) an underage child can not be a candidate
c) the election is for life
d) almost any Emperor will try to make his adult son (if he had one) his heir.
 
It's in line with my previous posts in this thread. Henry VI won't give up anything, but given how young his son and heir Frederick II, when Henry VI died, this IOTL gave a window of opportunity to Philip. To be fair Philip was elected, so he did have supporters in the Empire. However Philip's reign ended with his assassinated, the first monarch of the Empire to fell victim to that.
IMHO during the reigns of Frederick II and Philip a division could end up being a fait accompli.

During the reign of Henry VI a brother could end up being the facto Hohenstaufen representative in the Empire; Philip might qualify for that.
In this example Henry VI, Frederick II and Philip could parallel what IOTL happened with the Habsburgs Charles V, Philip II and Ferdinand I (Ferdinand had been the representative of Charles, long before he succeeded him as Emperor).
This could later result in a more 'permanent' division, especially if the Sicilian branch are too much absentee monarchs.
Now that make sence thank you for ezplaing it better
 
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