Have Soviets support Israel western states suport arabs

Initially after the second world war there was among the west greater support for arab countries take for example Britains close relations with the monarchies of Egypt and Iraq. What could it take fo western nations to support the arabs while having the Soviets support Israel?
 

birdboy2000

Banned
Save the Arab monarchies and get a right-wing regime in Syria once France leaves. No Free Officers Movement, no Ba'athists, just kings in every major Arabic nation. (This is, I suspect, much easier said than done.) Or somehow swing the new military dictatorships firmly into the anti-communist, pro US camp, which is probably even harder.

Israel was an extremely leftist state until Begin, but why support Israel when it'd alienate the Arab world? But if the Arab world is already alienated - say, by being overwhelmingly conservative Islamic monarchies hostile to communism - then the USSR would be more likely to take an ally where they could get it.
 
A re-alignment like this takes place in statichaos' A World of Laughter, a World of Tears where Israel ends up being pushed into the arms of the USSR.
 
I'm curious as to the military ramifications of this since the nautre of Israeli society and therefore the structure of its military is different than the Arabs and more suited to Western equipment than Soviet equipment. This same is true of the Arab states being supplied by the West.

For example the difficulty for Egypt to provide more pilots than planes for its airforce and provide high serviceability rates lead them to embrace SAMs as a major defence against aircraft. Would this be excacerbated with more complex Western aircraft, and would western SAMs address this problem?

In contrast would Soviet aircraft and AFVs, with the generally poorer serviceability rates, poorer build quality and poorer avionics be able to effectively operate in a military built around the high quality of its people and their exellent ability to operate independently without tight command and control?
 
Hm, the Soviets were the first to recognize Israel, right? And wasn't there a point in time where Truman was close to NOT recognizing it? In that case, Israel leans on the Soviets more as their ally.
 

birdboy2000

Banned
Hm, the Soviets were the first to recognize Israel, right? And wasn't there a point in time where Truman was close to NOT recognizing it? In that case, Israel leans on the Soviets more as their ally.

Truman was the first to recognize it, but he also slapped an arms embargo on them, which may be what you're thinking of. Israel won the war of independence with Czechoslovak guns. Czechoslovak, because it was still semi-independent and while Stalin wanted Israel to exist, he wanted it as a wedge between the Arabs and the West, so he used a client state to give him deniability - had he just supported it, the arms would've been Soviet.
 
What would happen to Israel when the Soviet Union fallls? unless this somehow butterflies it away, would we get something similar to a Cuba or Noth Korea clinging on?
 
Stalin wanted Israel to exist as a wedge between the Arabs and the West. It's a oft-repeated theory.

I wanted to believe it, because it fit into my stereotype that everything the Russians do are conspiratorial. But I've come across no evidence of this whatsoever.

Before someone can provide enough evidence for this theory, It's safe to believe that Stalin helped because it was a socialist-inclined nation against monarchist Arabs.

Without further evidence, the theory can be cut with Occam's Razor.

One thing I agree with Birdboy, that the key to this scenario lies in Arabs staying right-wing.
 
Naturally, with Israel as an ally the USSR could easily insert more spies into the US via the Jewish communities in the states. Which would have led to suspicion and hatred towards those Jewish communities. It might even helped raising antisemitism in the US.

As a result of that, Hollywood might have not been such a commercial power house and the entertainment business in the US might have never come to OTL proportions.

It could also mean that US and USSR armies had bigger roles in the mid-east conflicts such as the six-days war and Yom Kipur War.
 
I'm curious as to the military ramifications of this since the nautre of Israeli society and therefore the structure of its military is different than the Arabs and more suited to Western equipment than Soviet equipment. This same is true of the Arab states being supplied by the West.
I suspect the military ramications will be minimal, Israel was using upgraded Sherman tanks until the 1960's. The structure of Israel's armed forces is and was based overwhelmingly on their strategic situation not the equipment they've used over the years or who was in power.


For example the difficulty for Egypt to provide more pilots than planes for its airforce and provide high serviceability rates lead them to embrace SAMs as a major defence against aircraft. Would this be excacerbated with more complex Western aircraft, and would western SAMs address this problem?
Cronyism, corruption and inferior manpower utalization has always been the bane of Egypt's (never mind Iraq or Syria's) armed forces no matter which superpower has been giving them equipment & advisors. Soviet & US advisors alike have bemoaned these problems for decades.


In contrast would Soviet aircraft and AFVs, with the generally poorer serviceability rates, poorer build quality and poorer avionics be able to effectively operate in a military built around the high quality of its people and their exellent ability to operate independently without tight command and control?
Eh? Soviet aircraft tend to have better servicablity, whatever other flaws they have.

You also need to consider the models TTL's Israel gets & if it'll be an ''export only'' type which had much of the hi-tech gear stripped out.

Still I doubt it would matter much either way airpower has always been Israel's strong point and it's aircrew have always been much better than their Arab counterparts no matter which aircraft they've used.


What would happen to Israel when the Soviet Union fallls? unless this somehow butterflies it away, would we get something similar to a Cuba or Noth Korea clinging on?

You assume Israel even needs to go full Communist to be a Soviet ally. That isnt strictly speaking true, if nothing else you'll butterfly the Doctor's Plot and Soviet ''anti-Zionism''. You may also see the Soviets being more open to allowing Soviet Jews to emigrate to Israel and a lessening of anti-semitism in Russia, if Israel remains a good ally. Oddly this may result in a much higher number of Jews staying in the U.S.S.R instead of rushing to Israel at the first oppertunty.

As for the long-term effects on the U.S.S.R as a whole, it could well butterfly it's collapse. OTL that was a pretty darn unlikely event to begin with.
 
Last edited:
Top