Have Norton Motorcycles continue to be a successful company

norton-motorcycle-logo-678.jpg

Apart from having the rights bought and now used in India right now, have Norton Motorcycles be a successful volume producing company.

The company like Triumph must produce at least 50,000 units per year.

Much obliged
 
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Apart from having the rights bought and now used in India right now, have Norton Motorcycles be a successful volume producing company.

The company like Triumph must produce at least 50,000 units per year.

Much obliged
My father owned and rode a Norton Commando until his death. He always said that Norton's were made of fantastic parts that unfortunately never really seemed to fit together quite right :D
 
Investment, Management, Quality Control and get the unions under control. The same basic problems as the rest of the British automotive industry, be it bikes, cars or lorries.
 
Investment, Management, Quality Control and get the unions under control. The same basic problems as the rest of the British automotive industry, be it bikes, cars or lorries.
This. Definitely this.

The 'that'll do-ism' phrase that was coined by the three Top Gear turnips to describe the attitude among management, unions and the workforce in the 1970s is absolutely true. Even if I hate Clarkson and co.

And it was rooted in a deep seated arrogance in British society, from top to bottom. The entire country, regardless of class, felt the world owed it a living. In some ways, we're still grappling with that arrogance and unreality today...
 
Most non Japanese manufacturers of sports bikes failed to see what a quantum leap the Honda CB750 was and tried to beat it with mildly improved versions of the same old bikes they had been making rather than going back to the drawing board and designing a better superbike.
 
Most non Japanese manufacturers of sports bikes failed to see what a quantum leap the Honda CB750 was and tried to beat it with mildly improved versions of the same old bikes they had been making rather than going back to the drawing board and designing a better superbike.
Yes and no. As a longtime motorcycle rider, who likes her sporty bikes, and has read up on the subject:

The Honda CB750 when it was released in 1969, had pretty much the same horsepower as the BSA Rocket 3, and Triumph Trident Triples. They also handled better than the Honda. The thing is, the Trident, and Rocket 3, were just basically Daytona 500 twin engines with an extra cylinder added on, because it was a relatively cheap substitute for the Triumph Quadrant 4-cylinder 1000, that never got past the prototype stage (nobody wanted to spend the money on the manufacturing development [as in new tooling] to make the Quadrant, and it was foolishly decided that the "Japanese will stick to little motorcycles - our current big twins are fine for well into the foreseeable future"). Unfortunately, not much was invested to make the 3 -cylinder Trident/Rocket 3 engine more modern that its predecessors design-wise (or new tooling to make a more modern engine), make it more reliable (the early engines had a tendency to overheat in the middle cylinder), and oil tight. Tooling-wise, the final nail in the coffin, was the proposed very modern design 1000cc Triumph V5, that was meant to be an answer to the Japanese 4s, being was axed, because by the time it was proposed, Norton-Villiers Triumph was seriously losing money, and couldn't even afford the tooling needed to make such a bike, forcing Norton-Villiers Triumph to be stuck with having to make warmed over versions of the same old bikes.

As was mentioned in earlier posts - money was a longstanding problem with the British motorcycle manufacturers by 1970 - the Norton Commando, while a pretty fast bike when it came out in 1968, was at its design limit. The Commando engine (which was basically a stroked Dominator engine for more displacement), was seriously undersquare, resulting in high piston speeds (not good for an engine with inadequate big end bearings), that made it a grenade, when you pushed the revs or bumped up the compression too high. It's why the Combat Commandos were only made for a year or two - they had a high rate of engine failures. By comparison, the Honda (and later on, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki) 4s, were sturdy, reliable engines. Oh yeah, and they could rev higher to make more horsepower, and were also much smoother than the non-counterbalanced, 360 degree British twins, that vibrated so badly (I remember how much my uncle's 67 Triumph Bonneville use to shake), that in the case of Norton, they had to create a frame to mount the engine in, to isolate the engine vibration in Commando, due to the previous model Atlas (which used basically the same engine as the Commando) shaking so much , that it wasn't selling. Build a new 750cc engine? They barely had the money for the prototype dual overhead came 350 twin they were committed to. It also didn't help that they were going down the rotary engine development rabbit hole, with the costs that incurred.

So in short, yes, the Britbikes were warmed over - the engineers at the British manufacturers were well aware that their bikes were behind what the Japanese were coming out with. IMO, I think they realized this when the CB450 was released for sale in the 1965 - by the late 60s the CB450, could give a britbike a run for its money (my other uncle who had a CB450, used to give my uncle with the Triumph Bonneville the fits, when they both went out riding together, due to the CB450's sprightly performance), but they did not have enough development money, courtesy of owners in the 50s and 60s like Dennis Poore, taking the money and running, and using it for other things non-motorcycle in nature. It didn't help that you had a labor issues on a par with what has been seen in the American auto industry. The shotgun wedding of Norton-Villiers, to Triumph, also didn't help things. Sure it pooled resources, but while the resources may have been adequate for one motorcycle company, they were not enough for two motorcycle companies to share.
 
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Yes and no. As a longtime motorcycle rider, who likes her sporty bikes, and has read up on the subject:

The Honda CB750 when it was released in 1969, had pretty much the same horsepower as the BSA Rocket 3, and Triumph Trident Triples. They also handled better than the Honda. The thing is, the Trident, and Rocket 3, were just basically Daytona 500 twin engines with an extra cylinder added on, because it was a relatively cheap substitute for the Triumph Quadrant 4-cylinder 1000, that never got past the prototype stage (nobody wanted to spend the money on the manufacturing development [as in new tooling] to make the Quadrant, and it was foolishly decided that the "Japanese with stick to little motorcycles - our current big twins are fine for use, well into the foreseeable future"). Unfortunately, not much was invested to make the 3 -cylinder Trident/Rocket 3 engine more modern that its predecessors design-wise (or new tooling to make a more modern engine), make it more reliable (the early engines had a tendency to overheat in the middle cylinder), and oil tight. Tooling-wise, the final nail in the coffin, was the proposed very modern design 1000cc Triumph V5, that was meant to be an answer to the Japanese 4s, being was axed, because by the time it was proposed, Norton-Villiers Triumph was seriously losing money, and couldn't even afford the tooling needed to make such a bike, forcing Norton-Villiers Triumph to be stuck with having to make warmed over versions of the same old bikes.

As was mentioned in earlier posts - money was a longstanding problem with the British motorcycle manufacturers by 1970 - the Norton Commando, while a pretty fast bike when it came out in 1968, was at its design limit. The Commando engine (which was basically a stroked Dominator engine for more displacement), was seriously undersquare, resulting in high piston speeds (not good for an engine with inadequate big end bearings), that made it a grenade, when you pushed the revs or bumped up the compression too high. It's why the Combat Commandos were only made for a year or two - they had a high rate of engine failures. By comparison, the Honda (and later on, Kawasaki, Yamaha, and Suzuki) 4s, were sturdy, reliable engines. Oh yeah, and they could rev higher to make more horsepower, and were also much smoother than the non-counterbalanced, 360 degree British twins, that vibrated so badly (I remember how much my uncle's 67 Triumph Bonneville use to shake), that in the case of Norton, they had to create a frame to mount the engine in, to isolate the engine vibration in Commando, due to the previous model Atlas (which used basically the same engine as the Commando) shaking so much , that it wasn't selling. Build a new 750cc engine? They barely had the money for the prototype dual overhead came 350 twin they were committed to. It also didn't help that they were going down the rotary engine development rabbit hole, with the costs that incurred.

So in short, yes, the Britbikes were warmed over - the engineers at the British manufacturers were well aware that their bikes were behind what the Japanese were coming out with. IMO, I think they realized this when the CB450 was released for sale in the 1965 - by the late 60s the CB450, could give a britbike a run for its money (my other uncle who had a CB450, used to give my uncle with the Triumph Bonneville the fits, when they both went out riding together, due to the CB450's sprightly performance), but they did not have enough development money, courtesy of owners in the 50s and 60s like Dennis Poore, taking the money and running, and using it for other things non-motorcycle in nature. It didn't help that you had a labor issues on a par with what has been seen in the American auto industry. The shotgun wedding of Norton-Villiers, to Triumph, also didn't help things. Sure it pooled resources, but while the resources may have been adequate for one motorcycle company, they were not enough for two motorcycle companies to share.
Mature technologies always look competitive with emerging technologies.
They aren't really because they have zero growth potential.
Sure, an early model CB750 just did what the better European Bikes did a little more reliably. But it had enormous growth potential while the British bikes were at the end of theirs. What the Brits should have done was use the little time when they were still competitive to build a new generation that had the growth potential to keep up with the Japanese in the 70s
 
Assuming you mean NVT..
Don't give the engine design of this

..to Ed Turner to bugger up only to have to redesign it.

Do not get involved with Wankel engines AT ALL when the kitty is empty

When employing Cosworth, who happen to know a few things about high performance engines, to design a modern high performance mill don't interrup them by insisting on anachronistic design elements because 'we've always done it this way'

 
Assuming you mean NVT..
Don't give the engine design of this

..to Ed Turner to bugger up only to have to redesign it.

Do not get involved with Wankel engines AT ALL when the kitty is empty

When employing Cosworth, who happen to know a few things about high performance engines, to design a modern high performance mill don't interrup them by insisting on anachronistic design elements because 'we've always done it this way'

I agree. the 350 dohc bike had a lot of potential, but insisting upon doing things like making the engines with vertically split crankcases ("they're easier to make with our [outdated] tooling, and we've made our engines that way for decades") just exacerbates the "British bikes are oil leakers" image. By the 1970s, only the old school riders were willing to put up with oil leakers (ditto for 4-speed gear boxes vs 5-speed gear boxes). Newer riders wanted to spend more time riding, and less time wrenching their bikes, to keep them from being oil leakers, or breaking down. The Japanese (and by the mid 70s IMO) European motorcycle manufacturers went to horizontal crankcases because they were much more oil tight, and rigid (which helps prevent crankshaft whipping at higher revs).

The problem with Edward Turner, is he just didn't seem to be able to move on from his 1930s success with the Speed Twin, that really boosted Triumph's fortunes at that time. IMO, he seemed to view everything in this for lack of a better way to put it "Speed Twin Ver. xx" mindset, and it's kind of ironic, because Triumph had made a vertical twin a few years before Ed Turner joined the company, and it went nowhere fast. Ed Turner brought the Speed Twin design with him, when he left Ariel, and joined Triumph, and it wasn't so much a design, as a happy accident of sorts. Ed Turner designed Ariel's square-4 engine, and out of curiosity, one day, it was decided to run the square-4 engine, on 2 parallel cylinders instead all 4 cylinders. They were surprised to discover that the engine ran very well on 2 cylinders - almost as well as it did on 4 cylinders. Turner had always had a thing for parallel twins, so when he went to Triumph, he basically brought with him the "design" of a twin cylinder Ariel Square 4 engine. It was different from the earlier Triumph parallel twin design-wise, and had more performance, being a big success for company. Unfortunately, reinforced by other British manufacturers jumping on the parallel twin bandwagon, it gave Triumph (and Ed Turner), victory disease.

Harley (I live 10 miles down the road from its corporate offices) is learning this lesson the hard way. After decades (starting in the late 80s/early 90s - post Japanese bike tariff era) of success of selling motorcycles based upon "American biker heritage" (ugh!! not everybody rides a cruiser, bagger, or full dress tourer), complete with engines that for their displacement (typically 1.6L or larger), are underperformers (similar bikes, with V-twins [the engine configuration Harley uses], that are made by Indian and the Japanese manufacturers typically make 30% more horsepower than Harleys do), Harley-Davidson is losing serious money. They're considered overpriced (a situation the British motorcycles had, when compared to comparable Japaneses motorcycles in the 60s and 70s), which when added to their low performance, and the fact that there is a trend nowadays away from the big 2 wheeled Cadillacs Harley makes, towards smaller displacement motorcycles (which Harley has not had much success with selling), means their new bikes aren't selling. Like Triumph in the late 60s/early 70s they've made a belated effort to try to change (such as with the Panamerica, and the aborted Bronx naked bike), but the possibility exists (especially since the Panamerica is a little late to the adventure bike dance [adventure bikes seem to be trending towards smaller engine displacements], and the new Harley CEO [a man with a marketing background, but no motorcycling background] is stressing that the company will "emphasize its American Motorcycling Heritage"), that Harley may wind up an irrelevant, boutique brand (like Rolls-Royce cars), that makes few motorcycles, and mainly sells items (clothing, etc.) that cater to the "American biker" image.
 
Ok I'll have a go,
1953 sees Joe Craig, head of Norton's race efforts, at the London Motor Show. He is not in a good mood, Norton management seem determined in his opinion to not move forward with the times. While they had reluctantly accepted the Mcandless designed feathered frame they had rebuffed his suggestions of a licence deal with the tiny French manufacturer Nougier for their 4 cylinder engine largely due to it not being British.
Nougier 4 cylinder engine


As he wanders past the John A Prestwich stand he sees this


One of JAP engineers Joe vaugely knows wanders over, after chewing the fat for 10 minutes they agree to retire to the pub 'for lunch'.
As the beer flows Joe relays how MV and Gilera will soon be back racing and how Norton management will not see the need to replace the Manx engine to counter the 4 cylinder rivals.
The JAP engineers agrees sagely and relays how the new 4 cylinder engine on display has met with no professional interest despite massive public interest. He goes onto say back at JAPs Tottenham factory there is an aircooled version.
History does not record exactly how many pints had been consumed before an informal agreement was made to have a Featherbed rolling chassis with gearbox delivered to the JAP factory with instructions from Joe to shoe horn in the air cooled engine
TBC
 
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Joe Craig has always hated management meetings however this one is by far and away the most important he's ever taken part of.
'So let's make sure I have the facts straight' said a member of the board. 'You authorised the delivery of company property to another company, instructed them to install a non Norton engine then released pictures to the press all without authorisation from this board? Why don't we fire you immediately?'
Joe replies calmly despite wanting to punch this idiot
Sir, we are Norton, we build sports motorcycles. We cannot continue to compete in racing without moving on from the International model. What I have done is the only thing I could have done to stay competitive. With respect sir without moving on from the International I would be without a job anyhow, I am a race developer and will not oversee a doomed effort.

Joe, wait outside please is the answer is his eventual answer.

Sack him immediately...who does he think he is...the hubbub dies down as all turn to face one man.
He repeats 'he's right, we need to change direction and how do we not go ahead given the positive publicity
20 minutes later, Joe is asked to return
'You are dam lucky, and if you try anything like this ever again you will be sacked on the spot
Joe Craig feels like an uncharacteristic episode of cheering.
 
The sight of Burt Hopwood, senior designer for BSA , approaching a junior draftsmens desk was not a good sign, especially when he had chewed you out and nearly fired you a year previously.
Calm down lad, I'm here to eat humble pie announced Burt, care to join me in my office for a cup of tea.
'I dam nearly had you fired, suggesting my design be replaced, but a lot of what you proposed does make sense now I've calmed down.'
The draftsmens had on his own time produced drawings for using a modified ohc LAT twin currently used in the slow selling Sunbeam s7/8 built on the almost idle engine production line for the Sunbeam, installed across the frame and using the original high compression cylinder head modified to cure the problem of oil pooling in the cylinder head.
 
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