Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine

[Nicole]

A random thought after reading the Israel thread...

What if the Balfour Declaration was never issued, and the original Mandate of Palestine remained united? It seems likely to me that the Jordanian Hashemites would be put in charge of the entire territory. How would such a state react to growing Zionism (an autonomous Jewish province, or would the Zionists try to declare independence and fight a war?) What does the Middle East look like?

 

[Keenir]

A random thought after reading the Israel thread...

What if the Balfour Declaration was never issued, and the original Mandate of Palestine remained united? It seems likely to me that the Jordanian Hashemites would be put in charge of the entire territory. How would such a state react to growing Zionism (an autonomous Jewish province, or would the Zionists try to declare independence and fight a war?) What does the Middle East look like?

maybe one branch of the Hashemites convert to Judaism....(thus any attack on the Jewish upperclass* would be treated as an attack on the royal family)


* = saying absolutely nothing about the Jews who weren't in the upper classes.

 

[Nicole]

maybe one branch of the Hashemites convert to Judaism....(thus any attack on the Jewish upperclass* would be treated as an attack on the royal family)


* = saying absolutely nothing about the Jews who weren't in the upper classes.

That would certainly be rather interesting, as the Hashemites claim descent from Muhammed... And Jewish tradition requires the King to be descended from David, but wtih so many years I'm sure a geneology could be fabric- discovered.

 

[Keenir]

That would certainly be rather interesting, as the Hashemites claim descent from Muhammed... And Jewish tradition requires the King to be descended from David, but wtih so many years I'm sure a geneology could be fabric- discovered.

look how many times the Ottomans changed their lineage. (first, from Shem son of Noah, to Esau, to...I forget whom)

so its not beyond the realm of the possible.

besides, the Palestinian section of the Jordanian Kingdom wouldn't have its own king anyway -- maybe it'd be a "republic" (to appease the Westerners) under Hashemite supervision.

*re-reads that* did I just contradict myself? *puzzled*

 

[Nicole]

Why would being a Republic appease the Westerners? After all, the British are the ones putting the monarchy in... Though, what do you mean by Westerner?

 

[Xen]

An intresting thought, what if the situations are reversed, the Jews have the Tel Aviv strip and the West Bank (Perhaps some on the East Bank as well) as an autonomous Jewish Region with loyalties to and protected by the King.

I believe more Jewish people would have immigrated to the west, the United States in particular, and perhaps the Soviet Jews are forced to settle in Siberia's Jewish Autonomous Region, perhaps it gains status of a Republic? Zion SSR or something.

 

[Derek Jackson]

How mamy Jews would have gone to Palestine without Balfour?

If, as I suspect, not a lot then Zionism would not be available as an enemy/ scapegoat to lots of Arab factions.

(I still like the idea of South Africa offering a haven for Jews in the 30s. They probably wanted more white folk but in fact Jews ended up being moderate or radically anti racist to a greater extent than the rest of South Africa's white population)

 

[mishery]

(I still like the idea of South Africa offering a haven for Jews in the 30s. They probably wanted more white folk but in fact Jews ended up being moderate or radically anti racist to a greater extent than the rest of South Africa's white population)

Unfortunately there is a long history of the oppressed emigrating and becoming the oppressor.

Also, surely some would decide that going against the status quo in S. Africa might lead to anti-semitism, which they had emigrated to S. Africa to escape. Maybe the second generation that feels more secure might become radicalised as opposed to the first. So in the short term not much difference but come say the 60's there is a much larger white liberal group.

 

[Wendell]

That would certainly be rather interesting, as the Hashemites claim descent from Muhammed... And Jewish tradition requires the King to be descended from David, but wtih so many years I'm sure a geneology could be fabric- discovered.

The Hasmoneans were not in the line of David...

 

[Midgard]

maybe one branch of the Hashemites convert to Judaism....(thus any attack on the Jewish upperclass* would be treated as an attack on the royal family)


* = saying absolutely nothing about the Jews who weren't in the upper classes.

Not very likely, given that accordingly to more conservative interpretation of Islamic law, convsersion from Islam to another religion is punishable by death... even if it is somehow possible to protect said convert through the official mandate/possible reinterpretation of the Islamic law, it may not fly with the majority of population, and especially with the other rulers, some of whom are basing their rule on religious grounds, or on adoption of more conservative strains of Islam. Expect constant riots/questioning of said Hashemites' legitimacy as rulers both by the Muslims (who may be appaled at the fact of conversion), and the Jews (who would not consider such a ruler genuine by far, at least not in a long run).

 

[Scarecrow]

How mamy Jews would have gone to Palestine without Balfour?

If, as I suspect, not a lot then Zionism would not be available as an enemy/ scapegoat to lots of Arab factions.

(I still like the idea of South Africa offering a haven for Jews in the 30s. They probably wanted more white folk but in fact Jews ended up being moderate or radically anti racist to a greater extent than the rest of South Africa's white population)

in the 1930's there was a program called the "Kimberly Scheme" which propsed that Jews move to the North-east of West Australia, around the Ord River thats another possible spot

 

[Keenir]

Not very likely, given that accordingly to more conservative interpretation of Islamic law, convsersion from Islam to another religion is punishable by death...

there's a line in the Quran about how if a man returns to Islam, that he should be accepted, and if that man strays again returns again to Islam, that he should be accepted.

the Hashemite mullahs and jurists could probably make use of that passage, imho.

even if it is somehow possible to protect said convert through the official mandate/possible reinterpretation of the Islamic law, it may not fly with the majority of population, and especially with the other rulers,

why would the Hashemites care about what the Saudis or the Afghanis (etc) think of Hashemite royal matters?

 

[Shope]

A random thought after reading the Israel thread...

What if the Balfour Declaration was never issued, and the original Mandate of Palestine remained united? It seems likely to me that the Jordanian Hashemites would be put in charge of the entire territory. How would such a state react to growing Zionism (an autonomous Jewish province, or would the Zionists try to declare independence and fight a war?) What does the Middle East look like?

The Balfour Declaration was never an officially binding document.

There were no Hashemites in Palestine until the Saudis kicked them out of the Hejaz in the mid-20s. Churchill arranged for eastern Palestine to be given over to the Hashemites afterward.

The original deal, according to TE Lawrence, was that the Hashemites would recieve all of Syria (including Palestine) in return for helping the British during WWI. The Euro-trash, however, decided to return to thier colonialist instincts and, instead, enslave the Arabs. So, the French and British signed the Sykes-Picot Treaty which turned Syria into three countries--Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine--and combined Basra, Baghdad and Mosul into a single country.

If the Hashemites hadn't been screwed-over, the Saudis wouldn't've been strong enough to capture the Hejaz--and Wahabbism would never have risen to its present heights. Thank you Europe!

 

[fortyseven]

Baha'u'llah claimed to be a descendant of Zoroaster, Moses, and David.

linky