Hashemite Arabia

The Dude

Banned
Is it at all possible for the Hashemites to take over in Arabia instead of the Sauds? If so, what would the major effects of this be?
 
Just have the Brits back them instead. There would still be a Caliph with Hashemite Arabia. Would it still be influential is a different question.
 
What would we call it? Just Arabia? Hashemite Arabia is too much of a mouthful. And sounds a bit too similar to hash.
 
Is it at all possible for the Hashemites to take over in Arabia instead of the Sauds? If so, what would the major effects of this be?
Don't see why not. IIRC there was a fair amount of disagreement between officials in the Foreign Office who were for backing the Hashemites and those in the India Office who backed the Saudis, simply have the Hashemite faction win out and the British decisively support them and they're practically guaranteed to win I'd say. St. John Philby seems to have been an active supporter of Ibn Saud and very useful to him in advising how far he could go without crossing the line and annoying the British, maybe he has a fatal accident before he does any real damage and Ibn Saud without his knowledge does something to piss people off enough to have them support Hussein bin Ali instead? Would also have the nice side effect of getting rid of Kim Philby if it happens before 1911.

As for how things shake out I don't know enough about the region to say. The prospect of much reduced Wahhabi influence in the world and no Saudi money going to extremists and terrorists would be nice though.
 

The Dude

Banned
Don't see why not. IIRC there was a fair amount of disagreement between officials in the Foreign Office who were for backing the Hashemites and those in the India Office who backed the Saudis, simply have the Hashemite faction win out and the British decisively support them and they're practically guaranteed to win I'd say. St. John Philby seems to have been an active supporter of Ibn Saud and very useful to him in advising how far he could go without crossing the line and annoying the British, maybe he has a fatal accident before he does any real damage and Ibn Saud without his knowledge does something to piss people off enough to have them support Hussein bin Ali instead? Would also have the nice side effect of getting rid of Kim Philby if it happens before 1911.

As for how things shake out I don't know enough about the region to say. The prospect of much reduced Wahhabi influence in the world and no Saudi money going to extremists and terrorists would be nice though.

Exactly. I posted this thread because I wondered what it would be like if the kings of Jordan, who are, on the whole, very good leaders, ruled the oil-rich lands of Saudi Arabia.
 
I don't think the rulers of the Jordanian Kingdom and the Kingdom of Hejaz would be the same people - Hussein bin Ali ruled Hejaz before passing it on to his eldest son Ali, with his second son Abdullah getting Trasnjordan. With an enlarged Kingdom of Hejaz and it being the more prestigious territory thanks to holding Mecca and Medina I can't see any real reason to disposses Abdullah by folding Transjordan into it as well, plus that might make the British a bit nervous. Now you'd probably get a government like Jordan's which in itself is interesting enough, just imagine all that oil money being used constructively rather than frittered away by thousands of princes.
 

Don Grey

Banned
This is highly unlikely. And i think abdul has explained sevral times before.

The people in the hijaz didnt except them. Remeber they betrayed a 600 year old islamic empire and the legitimate caliphate. They cut down there own muslim brothers for money. They werent even that popular the guy was just a sherif. Out of 7 millions arabs only 20.000 beduins supported him. As far as the arab pop in the region was concered they fought against the legitimate monarcy and caliphat for "infedel" gold. Thats another reason the saudis could through them out. The only reason the hashimate dynasty exsists is because they could carry there hole base to modern day jordan if i remember abdul correctly.

By what legitamcy were they going to take the caliph title?By what power could they get it or hold it? More "infedel" help? Did they drive into christian europe in the past? no. Did they stop or fight against crusades or christians armies? no. What they did was in the time treason and even worse helped a "christian army" as far as the muslims were concernd get a foot hold in the holly lands.

The calaphacy is an important and powerfull title. You cant just claim it. The only way the ottomans did is by domination the muslims world and encompsing large swaths of it. Then fighting "christians europe" geting vitory after victory to further there legitamacy. The house of osman basicaly acted like the "lord pretector" of the muslims world for centuries. What have the hashimates done except treason? Sooner or later people will realize the great hashimate caliphat is just a puppet.
 
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Whilst Hussein bin Ali took the title of Caliph his son Ali didn't, likewise the Saudis have avoided claiming it as well. Just because he's tacked on a bunch of extra desert land to his kingdom I don't think that would be enough to change Ali's mind about claiming the title. So setting aside Whanztastic's idea of their claiming the Caliphate we're really just talking about a Hashemite Arabia, which doesn't seem that undoable. Although if Abdul or one of our other resident Ottoman/Middle East expert knows about why that might not be feasible I'd be interested to hear it.
 

Hashasheen

Banned
This is highly unlikely. And i think abdul has explained sevral times before.

The people in the hijaz didnt except them. Remeber they betrayed a 600 year old islamic empire and the legitimate caliphate. They cut down there own muslim brothers for money. They werent even that popular the guy was just a sherif. Out of 7 millions arabs only 20.000 beduins supported him. As far as the arab pop in the region was concered they fought against the legitimate monarcy and caliphat for "infedel" gold. Thats another reason the saudis could through them out. The only reason the hashimate dynasty exsists is because they could carry there hole base to modern day jordan if i remember abdul correctly.

By what legitamcy were they going to take the caliph title?By what power could they get it or hold it? More "infedel" help? Did they drive into christian europe in the past? no. Did they stop or fight against crusades or christians armies? no. What they did was in the time treason and even worse helped a "christian army" as far as the muslims were concernd get a foot hold in the holly lands.

The calaphacy is an important and powerfull title. You cant just claim it. The only way the ottomans did is by domination the muslims world and encompsing large swaths of it. Then fighting "christians europe" geting vitory after victory to further there legitamacy. The house of osman basicaly acted like the "lord pretector" of the muslims world for centuries. What have the hashimates done except treason? Sooner or later people will realize the great hashimate caliphat is just a puppet.
Silence Turkish dog! Do not besmirch the great Hashemites!
 
I don't think the rulers of the Jordanian Kingdom and the Kingdom of Hejaz would be the same people - Hussein bin Ali ruled Hejaz before passing it on to his eldest son Ali, with his second son Abdullah getting Trasnjordan. With an enlarged Kingdom of Hejaz and it being the more prestigious territory thanks to holding Mecca and Medina I can't see any real reason to disposses Abdullah by folding Transjordan into it as well, plus that might make the British a bit nervous. Now you'd probably get a government like Jordan's which in itself is interesting enough, just imagine all that oil money being used constructively rather than frittered away by thousands of princes.

well another son got Iraq and had a claim on Syria as well.

imagine a timeline where Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Arabia are a single moderate kingdom
 
well another son got Iraq and had a claim on Syria as well.

imagine a timeline where Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Arabia are a single moderate kingdom
We can at least *hope* it would be moderate, given how much power (from oil) it would have in the modern day. And that is assuming it doesn't enter into conflicts with Iran that goes more in its favours than Iraq's attempts did...
 
We can at least *hope* it would be moderate, given how much power (from oil) it would have in the modern day. And that is assuming it doesn't enter into conflicts with Iran that goes more in its favours than Iraq's attempts did...


heh....Baathist coup in the 1960's leads to a United Arab Republic with Egypt.
 
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