Yeah Im not exactly in love with Krasta, though I do like her brother, Skarnu.
Harry Turtledoves The Darkness?
- Thread starter Enigmajones
- Start date
Almost finished my re-read of this particular series; may post more detailed thoughts tomorrow, but it remains a fascinating combination of fairytale aesthetics with grubbily factual elements borrowed from the Second World War & elsewhere, but rather cleverly reconfigured to offer a certain level of detachment from the rather painful combination of lingering trauma, national pride & political prejudices that make it somewhat hard for any work to offer a genuinely objective take on World War II.
I still resent the fact that the only Lagoan PoV character loses interest in his own country and decides to be a Kuusamo instead; clearly this layer of detachment doesn't go quite deep enough!
I still resent the fact that the only Lagoan PoV character loses interest in his own country and decides to be a Kuusamo instead; clearly this layer of detachment doesn't go quite deep enough!
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On a less cranky note, it just struck me that it might be amusing to imagine the reaction of Derlavai natives to reading a series of novels depicting the Second World - one suspects they'd be fascinated by the world building and alternately amused or annoyed by the lack of an equally imaginative plot (Bonus points if the version of the Second World War they read is the one from THE WAR THAT CAME EARLY!).
On a less frivolous note, one did my best to keep an eye out for allusions to the Banners & National Colours of Derlavai while reading through the series; by the end Jelgava, Ortah, Valmiera & Zuwayza remained without any attributed colours (in either sense of the word - one would assume that Jelgava & Valmiera paint their dragons in the colours of their army uniforms; I'm not sure how the Zuwayzin would distinguish their own scaly flamethrowers, though one wonders if they might simply whitewash their dragons as they do their homes).
Bari: Orange & White, a bear (Cannot recall if it was an orange bear on white or a white bear on orange)
Algarve: Green, red & white (diagonal stripes on flag; colours appear in various patterns on dragon) colours not always given in that specific order
Sibiu: A badge of five gold crowns on a sea-green field is mentioned, but dragons are painted red & yellow & blue (possibly in various patterns per Algarve)
Lagoas: It is specified that both Lagoan dragons & Lagoan flags (or at least the Lagoan naval ensign) are red & gold
Forthweg: National colours blue & white, national badge a leaping stag
Gyongyos: Dragons painted red & blue, black and yellow in gaudy stripes
Kuusamo: Dragons and flags (at the very least naval ensigns) sea green & sky blue
Yanina: National colours red & white
Grelz: Green & gold
Unkerlant: Dragons rock-grey; national flag white, black & red
Note: the first mention of a flag of truce is a white & green striped flag, but more straightforward white flags are also used repeatedly; my assumption is that either the green & white is more 'official' or that specific practices may vary by nation.
Bari: Orange & White, a bear (Cannot recall if it was an orange bear on white or a white bear on orange)
Algarve: Green, red & white (diagonal stripes on flag; colours appear in various patterns on dragon) colours not always given in that specific order
Sibiu: A badge of five gold crowns on a sea-green field is mentioned, but dragons are painted red & yellow & blue (possibly in various patterns per Algarve)
Lagoas: It is specified that both Lagoan dragons & Lagoan flags (or at least the Lagoan naval ensign) are red & gold
Forthweg: National colours blue & white, national badge a leaping stag
Gyongyos: Dragons painted red & blue, black and yellow in gaudy stripes
Kuusamo: Dragons and flags (at the very least naval ensigns) sea green & sky blue
Yanina: National colours red & white
Grelz: Green & gold
Unkerlant: Dragons rock-grey; national flag white, black & red
Note: the first mention of a flag of truce is a white & green striped flag, but more straightforward white flags are also used repeatedly; my assumption is that either the green & white is more 'official' or that specific practices may vary by nation.
I'm still trying to decide how to rank the various PoV characters - mostly struggling with how to balance "interesting to follow" against "Evil B******" Vs "Boring" - so for your amusement & mine own one will post my post read-through answers to the INCONSISTENCIES IN TURTLEDOVE'S WORK (DARKNESS) entry on the Turtledove Wiki.
Hopefully I'll win at least one 'No-prize'.
*I'd really love to imagine that Lagoas took the lead in planning the Liberation of Sibiu, if only because they're likely to have far more experience of military operations in that direction than Kuusamo; it's also interesting to wonder how the Allied Nations handled the paradox of an Algarvic kingdom being a victim, rather than the villain under Algarvian occupation (Alas, Cornelu doesn't last and Fernao - his most logical alternative, unless we're willing to let Costache have HER say - is joined at the hip to Mistress Pekka).
2. In Into the Darkness, King Swemmel of Unkerlant waxes nostalgic about his twin brother Kyot's encounter with the headsman's axe. In all further volumes, Kyot is remembered as having been boiled in oil.
Swemmel being Swemmel, there's no guarantee his recollections of Kyot's demise are entirely clear & objectively true.
3. In Into the Darkness, King Donalitu of Jelgava is given the ordinal Donalitu V. In Out of the Darkness, he is Donalitu III.
Given that Jelgava is explicitly described as a patchwork of states prior to unification under the monarchy, it's quite possible that King Donalitu uses different regnal numbers in different parts of his kingdom - in the same way Her Majesty is the first Queen Elizabeth in Scotland and "Queen Elizabeth the Second" south of the border (and this phenomenon is far from unique to Great Britain; just look up the King Charles the First of Spain, if you have an extra hour to read through all those royal titles!).
4. Balastro is a Marquis throughout the series. One scene in Darkness Descending, while properly (re-)introducing Marquis Balastro, later refers to "Count Balastro."
Hummm ... simple human error on the part of the character? I'd have to look up the precise context of the mistake to make a more detailed suggestion.
5. The Dramatis Personae list in Rulers of the Darkness lists two Valmieran characters Amatuand Lauzdonu as "nobleman returned from Valmiera." In fact they are returning to Valmiera from Lagoas. In the Zuwayza section, "Qutuz, Hajjaj's secretary in Bishah" is listed twice.
I don't really have any thoughts on the first point, but I really love the idea that Hajjaj has two secretaries called "Qutuz" (In an adaptation of this series, one would very cheerfully make a joke out of two Zuwayzin under-secretaries to the local Foreign Secretary sharing a name, like Thomson & Thompson from TINTIN).
6. In the opening scene of Rulers, Lieutenant Recared addresses Sergeant Leudast as "Lieutenant." Leudast calls him "sir" in return, without correcting the mistaken rank.
Given the observed tendency of Unkerlanter officers to resent having their little errors pointed out to them, it's far from impossible that Sergeant Leudast is maintaining a diplomatic silence ...
7. The most prominent member of the Seven Princes of Kuusamo is introduced in Through the Darkness as Jauhainen. In all future volumes, his name is changed to Juhainen.
I'm willing to chalk this difference in spelling up to a local Vs prestige accent version of the name (I believe it's specifically mentioned that Mistress Pekka's neck of the woods has a very different pronunciation to the most well-known dialect of Kuusamo).
**Another sad omission: we never see how Lagoan protocol handles the question of whether each of the Seven Princes of Kuusamo qualifies as the equal of King Vitor or whether they count as mere peers (in other words whether Kuusamo is held to have multiple kings at once or to actually lack a king, being governed by a small council of Nobles). Also, is King Vitor more George VI or does he have more than enough Winston S. Churchill in him to be outright entertaining?
8. In chapter three of Rulers, it is stated that a Lagoan officer had "evidently been briefed that Sibiu spoke his language imperfectly." The context makes clear that the sentence should be "...that Cornelu spoke..."
In fact, given that Cornelu IS a native of Sibiu and that both the Kingdom of the Five Islands & it's most familiar exile fail to speak Lagoan, either version of the sentence would work (and it's a little amusing to imagine this Lagoan officer requiring it to be gently explained to him that Commander Cornelu fails to speak Lagoan not because he's wilfully ignorant or just plain stupid, but because his whole native land naturally prefers to speak it's own native tongue ...).
9. In Jaws of Darkness, chapter 14, the narration in Fernao's POV scene refers to him at one point as Sabrino.
Presumably the narration finds Fernao as increasingly-tedious as the reader does and is desperate to get back to a more actively interesting character!
10. The daughter of Mosco and Bauska was born in Through the Darkness and introduced as Malya. Starting in Jaws of Darkness, her name has been inexplicably changed to Brindza, the same name as the daughter of Cornelu and Costache.
I wonder if Bauska initially tried to give her daughter a Valmieran name but was pressured into using an Algarvic name? (Possibly because Valmierans refused to recognise anything else or because some officious Algarvian officer made a nuisance of himself).
11. In Out of the Darkness, the narration in one of Bembo's POV scenes states "He remembered Evodio, who'd begged off pulling blonds out of houses, and who'd regularly drunk himself into a stupor because he couldn't stand what the Algarvians were doing in Forthweg." This describes the actions of Almonio, not Evodio; while Bembo and Evodio shared Almonio's feelings, they did not let them obstruct the performance of their duties.
This being Constable Bembo, there's no guarantee his memory is any more diligent in the performance of it's duties than the rest of him ...
Hopefully I'll win at least one 'No-prize'.
- In the Dramatis Personae of Into the Darkness, the Sibiu section lists both "Burebistu, King of Sibiu" and "Vitor, King of Sibiu". No king is listed for Lagoas, Vitor's proper nationality.
*I'd really love to imagine that Lagoas took the lead in planning the Liberation of Sibiu, if only because they're likely to have far more experience of military operations in that direction than Kuusamo; it's also interesting to wonder how the Allied Nations handled the paradox of an Algarvic kingdom being a victim, rather than the villain under Algarvian occupation (Alas, Cornelu doesn't last and Fernao - his most logical alternative, unless we're willing to let Costache have HER say - is joined at the hip to Mistress Pekka).
2. In Into the Darkness, King Swemmel of Unkerlant waxes nostalgic about his twin brother Kyot's encounter with the headsman's axe. In all further volumes, Kyot is remembered as having been boiled in oil.
Swemmel being Swemmel, there's no guarantee his recollections of Kyot's demise are entirely clear & objectively true.
3. In Into the Darkness, King Donalitu of Jelgava is given the ordinal Donalitu V. In Out of the Darkness, he is Donalitu III.
Given that Jelgava is explicitly described as a patchwork of states prior to unification under the monarchy, it's quite possible that King Donalitu uses different regnal numbers in different parts of his kingdom - in the same way Her Majesty is the first Queen Elizabeth in Scotland and "Queen Elizabeth the Second" south of the border (and this phenomenon is far from unique to Great Britain; just look up the King Charles the First of Spain, if you have an extra hour to read through all those royal titles!).
4. Balastro is a Marquis throughout the series. One scene in Darkness Descending, while properly (re-)introducing Marquis Balastro, later refers to "Count Balastro."
Hummm ... simple human error on the part of the character? I'd have to look up the precise context of the mistake to make a more detailed suggestion.
5. The Dramatis Personae list in Rulers of the Darkness lists two Valmieran characters Amatuand Lauzdonu as "nobleman returned from Valmiera." In fact they are returning to Valmiera from Lagoas. In the Zuwayza section, "Qutuz, Hajjaj's secretary in Bishah" is listed twice.
I don't really have any thoughts on the first point, but I really love the idea that Hajjaj has two secretaries called "Qutuz" (In an adaptation of this series, one would very cheerfully make a joke out of two Zuwayzin under-secretaries to the local Foreign Secretary sharing a name, like Thomson & Thompson from TINTIN).
6. In the opening scene of Rulers, Lieutenant Recared addresses Sergeant Leudast as "Lieutenant." Leudast calls him "sir" in return, without correcting the mistaken rank.
Given the observed tendency of Unkerlanter officers to resent having their little errors pointed out to them, it's far from impossible that Sergeant Leudast is maintaining a diplomatic silence ...
7. The most prominent member of the Seven Princes of Kuusamo is introduced in Through the Darkness as Jauhainen. In all future volumes, his name is changed to Juhainen.
I'm willing to chalk this difference in spelling up to a local Vs prestige accent version of the name (I believe it's specifically mentioned that Mistress Pekka's neck of the woods has a very different pronunciation to the most well-known dialect of Kuusamo).
**Another sad omission: we never see how Lagoan protocol handles the question of whether each of the Seven Princes of Kuusamo qualifies as the equal of King Vitor or whether they count as mere peers (in other words whether Kuusamo is held to have multiple kings at once or to actually lack a king, being governed by a small council of Nobles). Also, is King Vitor more George VI or does he have more than enough Winston S. Churchill in him to be outright entertaining?
8. In chapter three of Rulers, it is stated that a Lagoan officer had "evidently been briefed that Sibiu spoke his language imperfectly." The context makes clear that the sentence should be "...that Cornelu spoke..."
In fact, given that Cornelu IS a native of Sibiu and that both the Kingdom of the Five Islands & it's most familiar exile fail to speak Lagoan, either version of the sentence would work (and it's a little amusing to imagine this Lagoan officer requiring it to be gently explained to him that Commander Cornelu fails to speak Lagoan not because he's wilfully ignorant or just plain stupid, but because his whole native land naturally prefers to speak it's own native tongue ...).
9. In Jaws of Darkness, chapter 14, the narration in Fernao's POV scene refers to him at one point as Sabrino.
Presumably the narration finds Fernao as increasingly-tedious as the reader does and is desperate to get back to a more actively interesting character!
10. The daughter of Mosco and Bauska was born in Through the Darkness and introduced as Malya. Starting in Jaws of Darkness, her name has been inexplicably changed to Brindza, the same name as the daughter of Cornelu and Costache.
I wonder if Bauska initially tried to give her daughter a Valmieran name but was pressured into using an Algarvic name? (Possibly because Valmierans refused to recognise anything else or because some officious Algarvian officer made a nuisance of himself).
11. In Out of the Darkness, the narration in one of Bembo's POV scenes states "He remembered Evodio, who'd begged off pulling blonds out of houses, and who'd regularly drunk himself into a stupor because he couldn't stand what the Algarvians were doing in Forthweg." This describes the actions of Almonio, not Evodio; while Bembo and Evodio shared Almonio's feelings, they did not let them obstruct the performance of their duties.
This being Constable Bembo, there's no guarantee his memory is any more diligent in the performance of it's duties than the rest of him ...
I'm only on book two, but I wish Siaulia would make an appearance. It would be cool to see the different colonies fighting each other.