Harold, Iain and Jo
- Thread starter SteveW
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Interesting stuf, Steve.
Is a rebellion of the scale envisaged really likely? I realise that PR is a contentious issue even today (the "we've always done it like that" effect), but do you honestly think over 100 Labour MPs in a coalition would rebel on the issue?
Also, I know the Liberals hold the balance of power in this administration, but would they really be able to press for PR? Would, say, an agreement to consider the issue, appoint a Parliamentary committee etc, be more likely?
Just my immediate thoughts. Don't let me put you off!
Is a rebellion of the scale envisaged really likely? I realise that PR is a contentious issue even today (the "we've always done it like that" effect), but do you honestly think over 100 Labour MPs in a coalition would rebel on the issue?
Also, I know the Liberals hold the balance of power in this administration, but would they really be able to press for PR? Would, say, an agreement to consider the issue, appoint a Parliamentary committee etc, be more likely?
Just my immediate thoughts. Don't let me put you off!
I would conceive it as more than likely that over 100 MPs would rebel on the issue. In the 1960s, even more Labour MPs would support FPTP than nowadays, and I think that Labour MPs in those days would be a bit less the party robots that many MPs nowadays seem to be. Also, the Liberals would be by no means popular amongst the PLP, especially with the trade union and working class wing.
Good timeline so far, my only query is about Alec Douglas-Home. IRL he resigned in 1965 just after losing the Roxburgh by-election (to the Liberals' David Steel), what makes him change his mind this time, when he does better in the election? Or is it merely that the 'butterfly' effect means that he decides to go immediately than at some point in the future?
Good timeline so far, my only query is about Alec Douglas-Home. IRL he resigned in 1965 just after losing the Roxburgh by-election (to the Liberals' David Steel), what makes him change his mind this time, when he does better in the election? Or is it merely that the 'butterfly' effect means that he decides to go immediately than at some point in the future?
Yes, went to several YC conferences - mostly in Wales, Tenby, Llandridnod Wells and Llandudno, but also National Bournemouth and Eastbourne.
S'funny the things I remember - like driving to LW with a couple of friends in a Mini (the car - not the skirt) and singing rugby songs, and cracking up with laughter!!
Well, I did some reading on the Liberal History website a while back, which said that the Liberals adopted calls for PR as early as 1961 (if I recall), because they were so spent as a FPTP foce- then as now, they wanted to move the goalposts when they could no longer score!
As for the rebellion question- Lord Douglas is thinking the same as I did here. It would be too much like turkeys voting for Christmas.
@Lord Douglas- Sir Alec's resignation is indeed a butterfly effect. Hanging on didn't really seem to make too much sense, so here I decided to push him!
On Friday 30th October 1964, Harold Wilson rebuilt his Cabinet. Grimond, Lubbock and Hooson had gone. Patrick Gordon-Walker, despite being out of Parliament [1], was made Foreign Secretary; Michael Stewart took Agriculture, ceding the Board of Trade to a new entrant to the Cabinet, John Morris; and Overseas Development went to another new face, the recently-elected MP for Stepney, Peter Shore.
Iain MacLeod immediately stepped up the rhetoric, calling for the Board of Trade, Department of Economic Affairs and Department of Technology to be merged together. Wilson dismissed this, but MacLeod had hit a nerve- several newspapers followed up his speech by asking why trade and industry seemed to be split three ways.
It was also an astute piece of politicking. MacLeod, an apparently new face, was laying the seeds of a revival for a Party which just weeks ago had been thrown out after a series of scandals.
Meanwhile, across the Pond, the last few days of campaigning were under way in the U.S. Presidential Election.
[1] This is exactly what he did IOTL.
Iain MacLeod immediately stepped up the rhetoric, calling for the Board of Trade, Department of Economic Affairs and Department of Technology to be merged together. Wilson dismissed this, but MacLeod had hit a nerve- several newspapers followed up his speech by asking why trade and industry seemed to be split three ways.
It was also an astute piece of politicking. MacLeod, an apparently new face, was laying the seeds of a revival for a Party which just weeks ago had been thrown out after a series of scandals.
Meanwhile, across the Pond, the last few days of campaigning were under way in the U.S. Presidential Election.
[1] This is exactly what he did IOTL.
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Wilso's Bombshell
From The Observer, Sunday 1st November 1964:
Wilson Calls MacLeod's Bluff
Ulster Question Gambit to Split Tories?
Mr. Wilson yesterday tried to break out of his embattled situation by promising that his minority government will, by legal means, force the Northern Ireland Parliament to fully apply the 1948 Representation of the People Act, thereby bringing "one man-one vote" to the entire nation. This move is seen as an attempt to force Mr. MacLeod to take a side. A Cabinet minister has told this reporter that Mr. Wilson believes that he will force Mr. MacLeod to either choose fairness or Ulster Unionist votes.[1]
Mr. MacLeod has so far refused to comment, but Mr. Powell has said that he "welcome any move which treats Northern Ireland as the integral part of the United Kingdom that it is". [2]
[1] Ulster Unionists took the Conservative whip at this point.
[2] Powell believed in the full integration of Northern Ireland as an integral part of Britain, and disagreed with all moves to treat it with separate laws.
From The Observer, Sunday 1st November 1964:
Wilson Calls MacLeod's Bluff
Ulster Question Gambit to Split Tories?
Mr. Wilson yesterday tried to break out of his embattled situation by promising that his minority government will, by legal means, force the Northern Ireland Parliament to fully apply the 1948 Representation of the People Act, thereby bringing "one man-one vote" to the entire nation. This move is seen as an attempt to force Mr. MacLeod to take a side. A Cabinet minister has told this reporter that Mr. Wilson believes that he will force Mr. MacLeod to either choose fairness or Ulster Unionist votes.[1]
Mr. MacLeod has so far refused to comment, but Mr. Powell has said that he "welcome
[1] Ulster Unionists took the Conservative whip at this point.
[2] Powell believed in the full integration of Northern Ireland as an integral part of Britain, and disagreed with all moves to treat it with separate laws.
Somewhat surprisingly for a man who had helped to bring a previous Conservative leader some little local difficulties, Enoch Powell's comments to The Observer had been tremendously well-received. That same Sunday, the Shadow Cabinet sat down and came up with a joint plan: they would stick to this accidental new line that they believed that all British laws should apply to all of Britain, even to devolved Northern Ireland. This was the best way out of the impasse. MacLeod cursed Wilson: a devilishly clever way to fight back!
This put the Unionists in a bind. Their leader, the Ulster Prime Minister Terence O'Neill was not unwilling to implement one man-one vote, but many of his MPs and followers were. Sir Knox Cunningham, MP for Antrim South, was livid and wanted the UUP to resign the Conservative whip. O'Neill couldn't win- if he refused to play ball with the Government then it would be overruled, and if he meekly accepted then his party would be destroyed.
On Tuesday 2nd November, O'Neill removed his MPs from the Conservative whip. MacLeod had lost some valuable MPs, but a number of crucial things had been achieved. Firstly, the Tories had made a stand for integrationism. Secondly, they had saved a lot of face in public. And thirdly, without knowing it at the time, they had probably helped Labour in preventing a great number of troubles from erupting on Northern Ireland's streets.
This put the Unionists in a bind. Their leader, the Ulster Prime Minister Terence O'Neill was not unwilling to implement one man-one vote, but many of his MPs and followers were. Sir Knox Cunningham, MP for Antrim South, was livid and wanted the UUP to resign the Conservative whip. O'Neill couldn't win- if he refused to play ball with the Government then it would be overruled, and if he meekly accepted then his party would be destroyed.
On Tuesday 2nd November, O'Neill removed his MPs from the Conservative whip. MacLeod had lost some valuable MPs, but a number of crucial things had been achieved. Firstly, the Tories had made a stand for integrationism. Secondly, they had saved a lot of face in public. And thirdly, without knowing it at the time, they had probably helped Labour in preventing a great number of troubles from erupting on Northern Ireland's streets.
From the Belfast Telegraph, Thursday 4th November 1964:
One Man, One Vote, No Reply
Westminster Forces Change
At a late sitting last night, Mr. Wilson's new government led the House in amending the 1948 Representation of the People Act to cover Ulster. It was passed by 612-18. The Conservative leader, Mr. MacLeod, and the Liberal leader Mr. Grimond, both backed the move.
Stormont MP for East Tyrone Mr. Austin Currie hailed the move, but added as a caveat that "...this is but a first step in our campaign for our civil rights". Ian Paisley has called all three national leaders traitors, and has called for the Ulster Liberal Party to follow the Ulster Unionist lead and sever ties with the mainland party.
Mr. Wilson said this morning that he believed the best course of action had been taken: "It is time for all the people of these isles to enjoy the same civic rights and protection".
One Man, One Vote, No Reply
Westminster Forces Change
At a late sitting last night, Mr. Wilson's new government led the House in amending the 1948 Representation of the People Act to cover Ulster. It was passed by 612-18. The Conservative leader, Mr. MacLeod, and the Liberal leader Mr. Grimond, both backed the move.
Stormont MP for East Tyrone Mr. Austin Currie hailed the move, but added as a caveat that "...this is but a first step in our campaign for our civil rights". Ian Paisley has called all three national leaders traitors, and has called for the Ulster Liberal Party to follow the Ulster Unionist lead and sever ties with the mainland party.
Mr. Wilson said this morning that he believed the best course of action had been taken: "It is time for all the people of these isles to enjoy the same civic rights and protection".
The next test of Wilson's nerve came on Friday 5th November 1964 when, at the culmination of a busy week, Sydney Silverman's bill to impose a moratorium on the death penalty came through. After hours of bitter debate, the bill failed its first reading.
Meanwhile, in America, Lyndon B. Johnson had crushed Barry Goldwater in the Presidential elections. Wilson congratulated him by telephone, but was desperately hoping not to be asked to send troops to Vietnam.
Meanwhile, in America, Lyndon B. Johnson had crushed Barry Goldwater in the Presidential elections. Wilson congratulated him by telephone, but was desperately hoping not to be asked to send troops to Vietnam.
From the Daily Express, Saturday 6th November 1964: (NB: The death penalty vote went on too late to be covered in this edition)
Ulster Arguments Continue
This week's turmoil over Ulster shows every sign of spilling into next week at least. In a week which has seen Mr. Wilson force the Ulster Unionists from the Conservatives and gain a great degree of political capital for his minority administration, the Northern Ireland question appears to be top of the agenda.
Mr. MacLeod, widely perceived to only half-parried a calculated blow from Labour, has sought to re-establish his Party's image as the protector of a British Ulster by appointing a Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland, shadowing a position which as yet does not exist in the Government. The position has been handed to legendary Colditz escapee and MP for Abingdon, Mr. Airey Neave.
Ulster Arguments Continue
This week's turmoil over Ulster shows every sign of spilling into next week at least. In a week which has seen Mr. Wilson force the Ulster Unionists from the Conservatives and gain a great degree of political capital for his minority administration, the Northern Ireland question appears to be top of the agenda.
Mr. MacLeod, widely perceived to only half-parried a calculated blow from Labour, has sought to re-establish his Party's image as the protector of a British Ulster by appointing a Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland, shadowing a position which as yet does not exist in the Government. The position has been handed to legendary Colditz escapee and MP for Abingdon, Mr. Airey Neave.
A Programme for Government
On Monday 8th November 1964, Wilson laid out what he hoped would be the programme that his minority government would try and get through Parliament. They were few:
-The nationalisation of the steel industry (a sop to the Party's Left).
-The abolition of theatre censorship.
-Comprehensive education.
In the end, only one of these would be adopted in this Parliament.
Wilson's "Programme for Britain" was doomed from the very start. In his own party, Desmond Donnelly and Woodrow Wyatt were vehemently against nationalisation, making an almost impossible task that little bit harder. MacLeod publicly opposed comprehensive education, as did the Ulster Unionists.
More ominously, Wilson now had to deal with a susbstantial imbalance in the balance of trade. For the rest of his time in office, he would be fighting off devaluation, ultimately without success.
On Monday 8th November 1964, Wilson laid out what he hoped would be the programme that his minority government would try and get through Parliament. They were few:
-The nationalisation of the steel industry (a sop to the Party's Left).
-The abolition of theatre censorship.
-Comprehensive education.
In the end, only one of these would be adopted in this Parliament.
Wilson's "Programme for Britain" was doomed from the very start. In his own party, Desmond Donnelly and Woodrow Wyatt were vehemently against nationalisation, making an almost impossible task that little bit harder. MacLeod publicly opposed comprehensive education, as did the Ulster Unionists.
More ominously, Wilson now had to deal with a susbstantial imbalance in the balance of trade. For the rest of his time in office, he would be fighting off devaluation, ultimately without success.
From Le Monde, Tuesday 9th November 1964:
De Gaulle Will Not Run
President de Gaulle yesterday confirmed that he will not be running in next year's presidential election.
Speaking at the Elysee yesterday, he told the assembled journalists:
"As I approach the age of seventy-three, I reflect on whether my continued leadership is the best way for France to maintain the glorious path upon which she has been set. It is time for a new man to keep our dear patrie in the glory and honour to which she is once again accustomed".
Although the Prime Minister M. Pompidou will be seeking the nomination of de Gaulle's supporters, it seems increasingly likely that the centre-right choice could be Jean Lecanuet.
De Gaulle Will Not Run
President de Gaulle yesterday confirmed that he will not be running in next year's presidential election.
Speaking at the Elysee yesterday, he told the assembled journalists:
"As I approach the age of seventy-three, I reflect on whether my continued leadership is the best way for France to maintain the glorious path upon which she has been set. It is time for a new man to keep our dear patrie in the glory and honour to which she is once again accustomed".
Although the Prime Minister M. Pompidou will be seeking the nomination of de Gaulle's supporters, it seems increasingly likely that the centre-right choice could be Jean Lecanuet.
The true reason for de Gaulle's decision to exit stage right was not one of age. After all, de Gaulle was not a man to let things like that get in his way. The real reason was the re-emergence of the prostate cancer upon which he had had an operation not that long ago. He was feeling weaker, even if he didn't want to betray it. [1]
Nonetheless, an era was drawing to a close, and there was no doubt about it. The question was: could anyone on the Right hold off Francois Mitterrand?
[1] Mitterrand too apparently hid his prostate cancer for 14 years IOTL. De Gaulle had had prostate problems IOTL.
Nonetheless, an era was drawing to a close, and there was no doubt about it. The question was: could anyone on the Right hold off Francois Mitterrand?
[1] Mitterrand too apparently hid his prostate cancer for 14 years IOTL. De Gaulle had had prostate problems IOTL.
On Thursday 11th November 1964, Wilson attended his first Rememberance Day in Whitehall as Prime Minister. It was to be one of the rare non-partisan days of his Premiership.
The next day, things were back to their usual aggressive situation. But nobody was watching the politicians. They were more interested in the arrest, after a tip-off, of two people in Hattersley near Manchester, suspected of murdering a number of children.
The next day, things were back to their usual aggressive situation. But nobody was watching the politicians. They were more interested in the arrest, after a tip-off, of two people in Hattersley near Manchester, suspected of murdering a number of children.
Conveyancer
Donor
Steve, quality, as ever. Am intrigued to see where you go with this one. Particularly if you take it into the 70's. Just finished watching Christmas present from She Who Must be Obeyed - Boxed set of "Life on Mars". This TL's 1970's could be a tad different. Are we likely to get a 3 Day week? What about joining the EEC? If De Gaulle stops saying "Non" would Harold or Iain sign us up.
As to Fletcher's comment on the infamous events at Saddleworth does this place Longford in a difficult position? I don't know when IOTL he began his involvement with Hindley's case.
As to Fletcher's comment on the infamous events at Saddleworth does this place Longford in a difficult position? I don't know when IOTL he began his involvement with Hindley's case.
Sorry for the delay, I've been away.
The question is- who would replace de Gaulle? I've already got a likely plan of action worked out. But chances are that we will join the EEC- MacLeod was as in favour as Wilson. 3 Day Week remains to be seen, I'm still working all that out but luckily I have a few years to go!
As for Longford- as far as I know, Longford only began to agitate for Hindley later when she was a lot older. Not sure if I've been brave bringing it in though, as I think any TL dealing with the UK in the Sixties could not ignore it!
From The Times, Saturday 13th November 1964:
The Face of a New France?
The first candidates vying to replace General de Gaulle as President of France next year have emerged. On the Left, Francois Mitterrand is stepping up to the plate. On the Right, expected to win, is MRP Senator Jean Lecanuet. M. Lecanuet faces a likely fight for the Right's nomination with Prime Minister Georges Pompidou, although the latter's unelected status means that he might have difficulty convincing voters to back him.
The Face of a New France?
The first candidates vying to replace General de Gaulle as President of France next year have emerged. On the Left, Francois Mitterrand is stepping up to the plate. On the Right, expected to win, is MRP Senator Jean Lecanuet. M. Lecanuet faces a likely fight for the Right's nomination with Prime Minister Georges Pompidou, although the latter's unelected status means that he might have difficulty convincing voters to back him.
On Sunday 14th November at Harpurhey police station in Manchester, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley were charged with two counts of murder each. The trials were expected to take place at some point in the following year.
Wilson meanwhile was increasingly beleagured. He wasn't helped on Monday 15th November when the Labour MP for Pembrokeshire, Desmond Donnelly, crossed the floor to join the Liberals, citing his opposition to the planned nationalisation of steel and his anger at Wilson's inability to force the PR bill through Parliament. However, the loss of a rebel like Donnelly at a time when Wilson didn't have a majority was almost irrelevant to his day-to-day work. Jo Grimond hailed Donnelly's defection, but would come to regret having Donnelly as an MP in time.
On top of this, Wilson was under pressure to devalue the pound, against his wishes.
Labour were in economic disarray; the Tories in Northern Irish disarray; the Liberals in tried and tested Liberal disarray.
Wilson meanwhile was increasingly beleagured. He wasn't helped on Monday 15th November when the Labour MP for Pembrokeshire, Desmond Donnelly, crossed the floor to join the Liberals, citing his opposition to the planned nationalisation of steel and his anger at Wilson's inability to force the PR bill through Parliament. However, the loss of a rebel like Donnelly at a time when Wilson didn't have a majority was almost irrelevant to his day-to-day work. Jo Grimond hailed Donnelly's defection, but would come to regret having Donnelly as an MP in time.
On top of this, Wilson was under pressure to devalue the pound, against his wishes.
Labour were in economic disarray; the Tories in Northern Irish disarray; the Liberals in tried and tested Liberal disarray.