Harold Godwinson, Kingmaker

What if, instead of claiming the throne for himself, Harold Godwinson had chosen to throw in his lot behind Edgar the Atheling upon the death of Edward the Confessor in 1066. He sets himself up as the power behind the throne during the King's minority, thinking that he can control things from behind the scenes, as his father pretty much did in much of the Confessor's reign. And, if Edgar should prove too unmanageable once he reaches adulthood, he can have him assassinated...like his father most likely did to the Atheling's father, Edward the Exile...and take over directly at a later time.

How does this affect the events of 1066? Will the Pope, for example, still give a banner to William the Bastard of Normandy, since Harold is not claiming the throne for himself, but supporting the legitimate heir of the House of Cerdic? Will Harald Hardrada still invade? I assume William the Bastard will still make an attempt...will the Saxon nobles be more forthcoming with support for Edgar's cause than they were for Harold's?
 
Nobody thinks this an interesting scenario? :confused: At least it's a change from all the "what if Harold survives Hastings" or "how can Harold win at Hastings" scenarios...
 

Thande

Donor
It is interesting, Robert. My guess would be Harald and William still invade, but the latter without the Pope's backing. Butterflies would adjust the exact circumstances, so it's a toss-up what happens at the relevant battles.
 
Its interesting, but I'm not entirely sure what would change in this scenario.

one thought. Perhaps events roughly follow OTL up till Hastings, but when Harold dies in battle, Edgar is already crowned? The godwinsons are broken, and the north took some substantial damage, but several parts of the kingdom are more or less intact, the nobles may be more willing to rally to their king, and Edgar himself is free. Could he serve as a focal point for Anglo-Saxon resistence to William post-Hastings ITTL?
 
It is interesting, Robert. My guess would be Harald and William still invade, but the latter without the Pope's backing. Butterflies would adjust the exact circumstances, so it's a toss-up what happens at the relevant battles.

If the change of tactics results in the the lack of papal backing for William, that alone could have massive butterflies. As wikipedia notes, quoting David Howarth's 1066: THE YEAR OF THE CONQUEST...

Upon his return to southern England, he soon received word from William's forces that he had been excommunicated by the Pope and that the Normans carried papal blessing to invade England. All evidence suggests that this news utterly demoralized King Harold. While he had been a powerful commander against the Norsemen, upon hearing news of the alleged excommunication, he declared, "May the Lord now decide between William and me" (Howarth, p. 164), and before going to battle, "the terrible rumour was starting to spread that the King was excommunicated and the same fate hung over any man who fought for him."

One of the reasons that Harold moved so quickly to meet William in battle was that he was afraid that the spreading news of the excommunication would cause the fyrd to go home, and his army would melt away. Take away the papal backing and excommunication, and Harold has time to gather in all his forces before he meets William. Hastings was a near-run thing even with Harold fighting with less than half of the men he could have brought to bear. Give Harold more time to gather his forces, and he probably defeats the Normans.
 
Hmmm, interesting twist.
Assuming Harold defeats both (or more) invasions how long would Edgar survive his ambition? A large part of A-S kingship meant being strong enough to keep the crown; if Edgar can't do this then a lot of nobles are going to start supporting Harold, especially if Harold has already married his children into the House of Cerdic...
 
Hmmm, interesting twist.
Assuming Harold defeats both (or more) invasions how long would Edgar survive his ambition? A large part of A-S kingship meant being strong enough to keep the crown; if Edgar can't do this then a lot of nobles are going to start supporting Harold, especially if Harold has already married his children into the House of Cerdic...

Well, the POD is, pretty much, that Harold isn't quite as ambitious as he was in OTL. Remember, he had the example of his father and Edward the Confessor to go by...the Confessor wasn't a particularly strong king, and Godwine pretty much controlled things from behind the scenes during most of his reign. Harold in this scenario would be thinking of controlling Edgar the same way. The problem might be that Edgar himself was kind of the ambitious sort...he did lead a few revolts against William of Normandy, after all. If he proves too difficult to control, Harold might have to eliminate him anyway.

You mention Harold marrying his children into the House of Cerdic...What might be interesting is for Harold to marry one of his daughters (Gytha?) off to Edgar, meaning Harold's grand-son inherits the throne, uniting the houses of Godwinson and Cerdic, as well as possibly marrying one of his sons off to Edgar's sister, Margaret. This latter would affect not only England, but Scotland as well, as Margaret would not marry Malcolm Canmore and the Scottish succession would thus be affected (No Kings Edgar, Alexander I, or David I or their descendants in the ATL). Gytha's marrying Edgar would change the history of Russia...in OTL she married Vladimir Monomakh, and was an ancestor of all succeeding Russian royalty down to the Romanovs.

Lots of potential butterflies with this scenario.
 
It is an interesting take on the subject.

Possibly both invasions would still come off but perhaps Tostigs insurrection would not be as strong as OTL as he would be fighting the rightful king of England and not his brother whatever his claim to the throne.
That might take some steam out of Harald Hardrada's attack making for an easier victory.

As already mentioned William would probably have some difficulty in obtaining the Papal banner even if Harold still did promise William the throne.
It would well make for a more "muddy" situation thus less following of Williams claim.

This should make Harold able to defeat William too leading to interesting butterflies in France.

Depending on the resulting situation a third invasion by Danes could matrialize as OTL. Depending on the situation and the skills of the Danish leader in TTL it could become dangerous. Especially if Edgar and Harold would be in a quarrel. But then Harold might do as his father and turn to the Danes!

Edgar might prove difficult to control by Harold but his OTL story of rebellions not to my best of knowledge. If these were the effort of Anglo-Saxon nobility with a kingpuppet in the lead; well so much for Edgar.
OTOH what would Edgar develop into being given the rule by Harold? (and Harold still pulling the strings)
 
Last edited:
To what extent was Harald (Norway) inspired to invade by the nature of Harold's (England) usurpation? If Edgar is King, and England more ostensibly politically united, would it be a harder sell for Tostig?
 
To what extent was Harald (Norway) inspired to invade by the nature of Harold's (England) usurpation? If Edgar is King, and England more ostensibly politically united, would it be a harder sell for Tostig?

I think if Tostig was willing to rebel against his own brother, he will still make some sort of proposition to Harold Hardrada if edgar is on the throne. Whether or not Harold comes this time around is really a judgement call. That said, if he never lands, one wonders what becomes of Scandinavia with his continued presence.
 
I think if Tostig was willing to rebel against his own brother, he will still make some sort of proposition to Harold Hardrada if edgar is on the throne. Whether or not Harold comes this time around is really a judgement call. That said, if he never lands, one wonders what becomes of Scandinavia with his continued presence.

Probably Harold would clash with Sven Estridsen and their Swedish neighbour again in the struggle for Scandinavian surpremacy.
 
Top