I saw that, it just ignited me.
Well then - if you don't like meddling in your internal affairs just say so! But Sven is sitting on the fence I guess in TTL.
Harold Godwinson defeated at Stamford Bridge
- Thread starter oudi14
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I saw that, it just ignited me.
Well then - if you don't like meddling in your internal affairs just say so! But Sven is sitting on the fence I guess in TTL.
I saw that, it just ignited me.
Well then - if you don't like meddling in your internal affairs just say so! But Sven is sitting on the fence I guess in TTL.
Advice is always welcome. You were most helpful before when I was trying to find a spare protestant prince to marry Queen Arabella.
Perhaps Sven is waiting for a major bust-up between Harald and William then he can come in afterwards and pick up all the pieces
I think that wouldn't be an unlikely scenario.
He did send off his brother and two sons to Jorvik in 1069 when the rebellion was running. I think he'd do this given the right moment.
I think that wouldn't be an unlikely scenario.
He did send off his brother and two sons to Jorvik in 1069 when the rebellion was running. I think he'd do this given the right moment.
Well the good thing about the Fens is that they could be a gateway to invading either Jorvik (what Harald calls his part of England) or Norman England
Svegn 1069 invasion was done in conjunction with Edgar Atheling. In my TL Edgar is in Scotland with his sister. His brother-in-law Malcom Canmore doesn't get on with Harald so it may be that Harald would be the prime target for Swegn here
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Svens brother Asbjorn led the expedition and had Svens sons Harald and Knud (the Holy) going along. So he did attribute some importance in this, than just a mere raid, I guess.
Depending on the situation where they would land and who they would pick a fight with. I don't think they would land in the Fens - a strategic position but they would need to find support among the Anglo-Saxons. With Harald in Jorvik/North and William in the south they might go for East Anglia???
They knew the fighting ability of Harald - Knud was to marry the daughter of the Count of Flanders and his son later to succeed him - so they also knew something of their distant kin of Normandy. Perhaps they would find it easier to rally support in the south against William - so East Anglia!
Also geographically it is on the east coast and not too close to York on London. That gives them a chance to get established before either King of England turns up with an army.
The problem is that the perception of the inefficiency of fortified towns against Normans is a mistake-and it is easy to overrate the norman's skills in thsi direction in 1067. Look at Exeter, rebelled shortly after the conquest and was only taken due to treachry, not the Normans seige warfare skills.
Also the 'fortified thegnly residences' are effectively castles. They are identical to norman ringwork castles, indeed excavations of some norman castle sites have found 'fortified thegnly residences' underneath. Plus, bear in mind that whilst the popular perception of a Norman castle is a stone built sturcture or a moot and bailey affair, in the early years after the conquest these were rare and most were ringwork castles.
In addition a lot of William's host were effectively mercenaries, in it for a quick buck. I am not convinced William could have fought a sustained campaign where his leadership was in doubt.
Also the 'fortified thegnly residences' are effectively castles. They are identical to norman ringwork castles, indeed excavations of some norman castle sites have found 'fortified thegnly residences' underneath. Plus, bear in mind that whilst the popular perception of a Norman castle is a stone built sturcture or a moot and bailey affair, in the early years after the conquest these were rare and most were ringwork castles.
In addition a lot of William's host were effectively mercenaries, in it for a quick buck. I am not convinced William could have fought a sustained campaign where his leadership was in doubt.
The funny thing is that in an earlier draft I had England divided into three nations controlled by Harald, Swegn and William
There - you seee...
Actually one of my first ideas was Sven's raid 1069 being successful and leading to a new Trans North Sea Empire. Have been putting ideas from that into comments in various threads on the board...
The tri partition is an interesting scenario. Could be developed, perhaps into a heptarcy with Wales, Scotland and some Anglo-Saxon princedoms surviving...
As it happens I already have a heptarchy
Jorvik
England
Gwynedd
Dyfed
Scotland
Strathclyde
Man and The Isles
A Danish kingdom in East Anglia would make it an Octarchy, but I wouldn't have a problem with that
In 1069 or 1070 Swegn did send an army to attack the Isle of Ely, part of the Fens. I could easily transform this as the start of a proper invasion of England or at the every the part known as East Anglia.
BTW what would Harald of Norway, William of Normandy and Swegn have called England in their own languages?
BTW what would Harald of Norway, William of Normandy and Swegn have called England in their own languages?
Sven: "England" - quite sure on it.
Harald: I think "England" too - but our Norwegian members will be sure.
William: hmmmmm
I don't know, a lot of the English nobles were Anglo-Danish by this stage and the Normans were seen as troublemakers, their foothold gained because Edward the Confessor liked them. Plus they were viewed as militarily weak, unlike Harald who was a proven warrior. Oh, William was raiding southern England, burning, pillaging, etc, once he landed. he was no better than Harald in that respect.
As to Tostig, he was hardly a model of virtue prior to 1065, infact Harold on a couple of occasions moved to have his brother lose his lands and power; Tostig was only saved because Edward stood up for him, partly to annoy Harold but also there is an idea that Edward actually liked Tostig.
As to Tostig, he was hardly a model of virtue prior to 1065, infact Harold on a couple of occasions moved to have his brother lose his lands and power; Tostig was only saved because Edward stood up for him, partly to annoy Harold but also there is an idea that Edward actually liked Tostig.
With the Witan, it is hard to gauge what its decision would have been. They knew William was across the Channel, they might have gone for Harald simply because he was a proven warrior and parts of the north had recognised him already whereas Edgar was an unknown.
William would still want the Throne, he isn't going to accept anyone else having it so I can't seem him as backing Edgar or even Tostig for that matter.
William would still want the Throne, he isn't going to accept anyone else having it so I can't seem him as backing Edgar or even Tostig for that matter.
Besides the Pope says that it is his. That may not cut much ice in England, but it is a good selling point on the continent.
He has to get a move on though. There was a new pope in 1073 and there would be no guarantee that this one would be pro Bastard.
Good point though I suspect that William doesn't have to worry about a papal change in 1073. He was not in a position to undertake a prolonged indecisive campaign in England, too much danger of unrest at home and a good part of his force were not 'Norman', without a quick victory a good part of this force might give up and go home-indeed, with Harold dead, they might not even cross the channel in the first place.
Move William's invasion forward a few days and thus the Norman force will have landed by the time that news of Harold's death gets to the south
Surely if Harold Godwinson is defeated at the battle of Stamford bridge he won't want to fight william but will instead go for support in the midlands (possibly) and defintly the west country. A prolonged war would make Sveyn see his opportunity and so he will probably invade slightly earlier. Perhaps just to add to confusion Harold Godwinson could guarantee the independance of cornwall in return for help against William. This could just force some sort of treaty since William is nearly bankrupt and the country in a pretty bad way with William controlling the south east and possibly london Harald Hadrada controlling northern England maybe up to the wash, sweyn controlling East Anglia and possibly london and Harold controlling the west country (and possibly the west midlands) minus cornwall. Presumably there would be a few border disputes after a while.