Could you explain this further? If you're referring to my "In the Shade of the Baobabs" TL, they both started off at the same POD and developed the same way. This TL is just further down the line with butterfly effects having more time to manifest.
Oh sorry, forgot to respond to this.
Yes, I'm talking about In the Shade of the Baobabs. I really liked that one. I didn't think that they were the same TL, but what I'm trying to convey is that a more familiar world is easier to get into for an Alternate Timeline. Africa is already alien, but that wouldn't have matter much if the rest of the world wasn't so affected. But as it is both Europe and the Mediterranean world are almost unrecognizable.
 
Oh sorry, forgot to respond to this.
Yes, I'm talking about In the Shade of the Baobabs. I really liked that one. I didn't think that they were the same TL, but what I'm trying to convey is that a more familiar world is easier to get into for an Alternate Timeline. Africa is already alien, but that wouldn't have matter much if the rest of the world wasn't so affected. But as it is both Europe and the Mediterranean world are almost unrecognizable.

Honestly, looking back I really underestimated how different Europe was going to look with Rome's defeat in the 2nd Punic War. Things gets butterflied: the Germanic migrations, Christianity, Islam, the decimation of the Gaulish Celts, etc. I always wondered why post-1900 TLs were more popular, now I know. East and South Asia as well as the Americas are basically as OTL though. That said, I hope you can still derive some enjoyment from the TL.
 
Honestly, looking back I really underestimated how different Europe was going to look with Rome's defeat in the 2nd Punic War. Things gets butterflied: the Germanic migrations, Christianity, Islam, the decimation of the Gaulish Celts, etc. I always wondered why post-1900 TLs were more popular, now I know. East and South Asia as well as the Americas are basically as OTL though. That said, I hope you can still derive some enjoyment from the TL.

To be hionest, I am not exactly sure if the Germanic migrations would be changed by a lack of a Rome. I figured Carthage and the Celts might have been able to work to deter the Germanic forces though it is hard to figure it all out admittingly.

It is interesting to see and such though I'm wondering what Iran has been doing.
 
I see that TTL's Swahili culture has developed! Now I feel nostalgic for my days in Kenya...

Why did you leave? You should have stayed here.

Anyway, Nyanza is the Bantu name for Lake Victoria. All the Bantu peoples in the area call it by that name, which means a large body of water in their languages. The Nilotic Luo people call it Lolwe. It would be interesting to see how Elands impact the native population, but just a quick question, what climatic conditions are best for Giant Elands? Pastoral peoples like the Maasai could herd Giant Eland as opposed to cattle if their climate permits it. It would be interesting to see how TTL East African societies develop with Amharic influence and Elands.
 
Chapter 18: Small Shoots of Green (Resurgence)
Small Shoots of Green (Resurgence)

jNRPZyE.jpg


430 – 480 CE

“An elephant does not die from one broken rib.”

Slowly, slowly, Ansongo regained its strength. Partially subjugated it might have been and while Ansongo had seceded territory to the Karoo and Bafer peoples, its core territories with fertile soil watered by the Niger River were still firmly loyal to Bamako and this was to be the demographic heart of its future victories. However, there were several strategies Ansongo employed to stop its losses. The first was shifting focus to an increased emphasis on martial prowess and tactics within the male age sets and as part of the age sets rituals, the participants would serve in the local forces for a minimum of five years, patrolling the territory, participating in public works projects, and having mock battles with wooden weapons. Payment was not accepted as a substitute for service, and this helped to establish a healthy respect and experience with the military in all economic strata of society. Another step was to encourage sons of generals and noblemen to become stewards of the Bafer and Karoo, to familiarize themselves with the tactics of the former nomads, as despite their (to the Ansongoans) utter lack of civilization, their skills in handling horses were far superior to those of Ansongoan forces in their care of giant elands. Despite the best efforts of Ansongoan spies, the secrets of making the Nubian bow were not discovered. The mansa Yoro made his move in 432 CE to regain the eastern territories first as they held the better agricultural and browsing land and contained significance as the ancestral boundaries of Ansongo. At the Battle of the Branch (so named because it happened when a tributary of the Niger branched south of the main river), an Ansongoan force of 3,000 men defeated a Karoo force of 1,200 with Ansongoan casualties of 500 and Karoo losses of 800. Several more battles, including the White Acacia, rapidly occurred from that point, and while Ansongoan forces faced relatively heavy losses, they won a good deal of the battles and unlike their semi-nomadic opponents, the much greater population of the riverine Mandinka meant they could much more easily sustain military defeats and field fresh soldiers while the advantages of the Karoo laid in the experience of their men. The Ansongoans and the Karoo danced in the savanna and Sahel for several years before the Battle of the Sands where an Ansongoan force caught a Karoo army and a nearby civilian encampment unawares. In comparison to other battles, the Karoo army was killed to the last man and then to break the will of the Karoos opposing them, an ambitious 23-year-old Ansongoan general named Sainey ordered his soldiers to massacre the encampment “down to the last soul”. As Sainey later told his friends rather matter-of-factly, the Karoos were not a civilized people and so using civilized methods to treat with them “would be like offering a hyena your outstretched hand”. Sainey’s methods were adopted by other commanders and while perhaps brutal, had the effect of cowing the Karoos to come to the treaty table. Ngalo, the prime chieftain of the Karoos, eventually sued for peace in 438 CE and thus agreed all of the Karoo would become vassals of the Ansongoan empire. They were permitted to keep some of their land they had won through conquest but were forced to give up the most productive to Mandinkas that had been dispossessed of their property when the Karoo had originally invaded. In exchange, the Karoo were bound by Ansongoan laws and forbidden from holding any governing positions besides those indigenous to their people and for the first decade of their incorporation, were forced to pay heavy taxes to repay the damage caused by their partial conquest of Bani. This became known as the “horse tax” among the Karoo due to the practice of being forced to sell their horses to pay the tax when they had nothing else to sell. Sainey was promoted to high general for his role in crippling the Karoo menace and received much honor throughout the empire. And now that the Karoo were officially subjects of Ansongo, what to do with them? They knew little of crop raising and their blacksmithing skills were poor compared to that of native smiths. Eventually, they became integrated into the herding and tanning complex that surrounded giant elands, gradually abandoning their equine mounts for the antelopes, using their famed livestock and archery skills to benefit Ansongo and help to defend its eastern border.

The Bafer remained a larger problem, not so easily dealt with like the Karoo people. Unlike the Karoo that had been a recent transplant from the Blue Nile regions, the Bafer were descended from a mingling of Niger and Saharan bloodlines and so could invoke blood ties among the Tuaregs to aid them in their skirmishes with Ansongo. Sainey now headed forces against the Bafer people in 440 CE, loosely lead by Izem the Green’s son, also named Izem II, who was disparagingly called “the lion cub” by his enemies. Ansongo’s army relied heavily on giant eland cavalry but again were out-performed by the Bafer, who used a mixture of equines and elands as their mounts and who lived and died in the saddle. Izem II was killed in a pitched battle by a stray arrow in 444 CE and Sainey lost his right eye and was heavily wounded in what was supposed to be a minor skirmish not long after and contemporary historians and jalis said that those events seemed to drain the Bafer people and the Ansongoan Empire of their taste for war as they met to discuss terms of peace only a few days later at the beginning of April. Later jalis would note that the sudden death of Izem II lead to succession struggles among his clan that complicated the Bafer’s war effort and Ansongo was still recovering from the Crocodile’s War and its loss of trade routes and could not sustain nearly a decade of war. The Bafer, now lead by Izem II’s daughter Illi, agreed to secede about half of Ansongo’s northernmost province to the full command of the empire and unlike the Karoo, kept their autonomy.

From 444 CE on, mansa Yoro focused on rebuilding its trade relationship with Carthage, but alas, the Phoenician civilization breathed no longer. The Punics were scattered across the Mediterranean, settled at the mouth of the Senegal River, or under the rule of their new Germanic overlords. While the trans-Saharan trade continued, it was through the now largely stateless Barbary peoples as the newly crafted kingdoms of the Suebi and Vandals of Byzacena had little interest in the goods of Africa. In these days, intermarriage between the Germanic invaders and Berber natives became increasingly common and a new people began to form, a small minority though they may have been. With the trans-Saharan trade diminished, Ansongo looked south for new wealth. The Desert Foxes, a secret society of merchants that had helped finance the downfall of the Baturus and rise of the Mariko dynasty, were the pioneers of a much more established presence in the southern forests. They did this by having less favored sons and daughters marrying into trader and merchant families depending on whether the marriage patterns were matrilineal or patrilineal; but such alliances could be fraught with difficulty. One granddaughter of a prominent merchant named Modou1 even wrote to her parents about the lack of sophistication of her groom’s people, the Asante, complaining that, “…what they call a city we call a village and what they claim is a village we would name a farm, there are no wrestling pits, the food is bland, the women are coarse and the men savage…”. Here, salt, copper, eland meat, and beef from Ansongo could be traded for hardwoods, dyes, spices, and kola nuts. The trade at times lacked the grandeur of the trans-Saharan trade, but many of the goods were essential to daily life and so were in demand in times both prosperous and lean. This more domestic trade also encouraged the advancement of agricultural methods and due to the proximity of the two trading spheres, such knowledge more easily flowed between the savanna and forests.

Ansongo also looked east to Mao and Aksum and west to Kita and the ocean for more commercial opportunities. Aksum was twice the distance from Ansongo than Carthage was and so the trade wasn’t as profitable or practical, but this did provide another diminished avenue for the gold and salt trade, as Aksum had large salt deposits it mined for commercial trade. The typical route was an eastern trek through the kingdom of Mao at which point most goods would be sold and exchanged for goods from Egyptian or Aksumite merchants, and Ansongoan traders would load their eland-drawn carts and start on the road back home. Few merchants ever wanted to make the journey around the highlands of the Blue Nile to trade in Axum itself and besides, even fewer with the desire had the wealth to finance such a long-range caravan. They would much rather integrate their fortunes into the growing verdant heart of the Niger delta that emptied into the sea. The Nok kingdoms that had been reinvigorated from Mande and Songhai migrants, had briefly been united into five different entities before shattering into a dozen different chiefdoms, under control of the local ethnicities, the Nok having been long absorbed into the stunning collage of ethnic groups, the Igbo, Yoruba, and Hausa being most prominent among them. The Niger delta even before the advent of giant eland taming had been a lush and densely peopled region of Africa, now with the usage of elands and plows in 400 CE, its population density was even higher than Ansongo’s more developed inner delta. Like Ansongo, a high degree of cultural and commercial sophistication existed here, but unlike Ansongo, the Niger delta remained stubbornly non-hierarchal. There was already a large trade network that extended east and southward overland into the Nzere Nzadi (or simply “Nzere”) basin or westward into the coastal forests and it was here that Ansongoan traders wanted further access into. However, Ansongo knew it could not conquer the delta area, which left the tool of diplomacy to establish relations with the delta.

The greater sophistication of the delta, specifically of the Igbo people that lived in the area enabled them to resist outright economic domination by the Ansongoans that explored the area and led to a more equal relationship than that of the dynamic between the Mandes and the people of the coastal forests to the west. The brass sculptures of the Igbo were the most coveted good among the Ansongoans, which they also sold to Kita and Mao. These sculptures would end up in the houses of Egyptian nobility, and the dhows of Aksumite and Kori merchants to travel the Indian Ocean to Arabia and the Indian subcontinent. But more valuable than the goods were the writings of Ansongo, of which certain Igbo merchants were fascinated by. Merchants were the first to adopt Southern Punic, as it allowed them to much more easily count their wares and track transactions. From there, chiefs used the script to track the movement of people and the agricultural production of staples like yams and oil palms. Of course, the common man had no desire or need to learn how to read or write as delta society and politics were perfectly navigable without the aid of literacy and the “Mande Letters” as the Southern Punic script became known in the Niger delta remained the province of the elite, and even then only for referential and decorative matters. Some “big men” of their communities might have an artisan that had some knowledge of the Letters to paint or inscribe them on their house doors and walls to display their prestige. In this way, Ansongo became associated with a general sense of prestige. “The Ansongoans”, one Igbo merchant wrote in 478 CE, “are very clever, able to make the desert bloom at the mansa’s command and are more numerous than locusts. They have powerful magics and their blacksmiths are more potent than any we can produce. But they are a proud and haughty people, a common merchant will speak to a chief as if the man were in an age-set below him and will brook no reprimand.” While this attitude would be indulged to retain access Ansongoan salt and specialty goods, ethnic tensions could occasionally flare into minor riots and protests at the small but economically powerful Mandinka colonists that would settle in the area to escape political tensions of their homeland. The descendants of the Songhai and Mandinka people that had intermarried with the Nok back in the 3rd century were often noted to be shown favoritism by visiting Ansongoan traders and native merchants would often complain of the unfairness of the situation. But as Ansongo was drawn deeper into the land of the delta, dire challenges to both the east and west of its Sahelian borders would soon demand the full attention of the recovering empire.
 
Each one of these updates makes me excited and anticipating more.

How’s Iran doing? For some reason, I can see them trying to spread Zoroastrianism into the Great Lakes region with no Rome
 
Each one of these updates makes me excited and anticipating more.

How’s Iran doing? For some reason, I can see them trying to spread Zoroastrianism into the Great Lakes region with no Rome

I like the idea of Zoroastrianism, which the Two God Path is partially inspired by ITTL, competing with the Two God Path, but the thing is Zoroastrianism doesn't allow people to convert to the religion. Theoretically, some prophet can form his own branch of the religion that does allow conversion, which in turn grows much more quickly than OG Zoroastrianism and eventually engulfs it, but I don't know how plausible that is. The other religious counter I've been thinking of is either a more westward Buddhist spread or more codified pantheons inspired by the Punic efforts to counter the Two God Path by having certified Punic theology books and tenets. But yeah, I plan to devote a later chapter to the spread and interaction between various religions in the world of Hannibal's Wake. I'm really glad you like the story so far! It means a lot.
 
I like the idea of Zoroastrianism, which the Two God Path is partially inspired by ITTL, competing with the Two God Path, but the thing is Zoroastrianism doesn't allow people to convert to the religion. Theoretically, some prophet can form his own branch of the religion that does allow conversion, which in turn grows much more quickly than OG Zoroastrianism and eventually engulfs it, but I don't know how plausible that is. The other religious counter I've been thinking of is either a more westward Buddhist spread or more codified pantheons inspired by the Punic efforts to counter the Two God Path by having certified Punic theology books and tenets. But yeah, I plan to devote a later chapter to the spread and interaction between various religions in the world of Hannibal's Wake. I'm really glad you like the story so far! It means a lot.

Well, if Mazdak still comes around, maybe he ends up being sent down over to East Africa instead of being killed (Mazdak was to Zoroastrianism what Jesus was to Judaism... kinda.) So Mazdak ends up with converts over there.

The Two God Path is definitely a surprising twist though I am curious onto the path of Judaism here. Would it spread across Arabia and reform? Would it still be Rabbinic Judaism or a new one would take the place (I could see the Jews at least becoming more notable in Ethiopia because of the connection between Sheba and Solomon).

And I'm happy that you responded!
 
Ansongo and the ethnicities in its orbit are spreading out pretty far-which does make me wonder. IIRC, regional strains of malaria made travel within Africa potentially lethal-not as lethal as travel to sub-Saharan Africa by people from outside of it, but still pretty bad.

Does this limit the ability of Ansongo to swamp its neighbors? Or is my recollection simply mistaken?
 
I like the idea of Zoroastrianism, which the Two God Path is partially inspired by ITTL, competing with the Two God Path, but the thing is Zoroastrianism doesn't allow people to convert to the religion. Theoretically, some prophet can form his own branch of the religion that does allow conversion, which in turn grows much more quickly than OG Zoroastrianism and eventually engulfs it, but I don't know how plausible that is. The other religious counter I've been thinking of is either a more westward Buddhist spread or more codified pantheons inspired by the Punic efforts to counter the Two God Path by having certified Punic theology books and tenets. But yeah, I plan to devote a later chapter to the spread and interaction between various religions in the world of Hannibal's Wake. I'm really glad you like the story so far! It means a lot.

Actually this is incorrect. Zoroastrianism does accept converts it's just that Parsis (Indian Zoroastrians) don't accept converts simply due to the fact that they after fleeing Muslim Persia became an ethno-religious sect similar to the Jews but instead of having a strict vetting process for converts they banned conversion altogether.
 
Last edited:
Ansongo and the ethnicities in its orbit are spreading out pretty far-which does make me wonder. IIRC, regional strains of malaria made travel within Africa potentially lethal-not as lethal as travel to sub-Saharan Africa by people from outside of it, but still pretty bad.

Does this limit the ability of Ansongo to swamp its neighbors? Or is my recollection simply mistaken?

I'll look into that. Basically, this is where Ansongo being in Sub-Saharan Africa comes into play in my mind. Ansongo is still recovering from the afflictions of The Crocodile's War and the two wars with the Karoo and Bafer people have taken enough resources that it's not really feasible for Ansongo to attempt to conquer such a far flung area like the Niger delta. Plus it's a more forested environment, which Ansongoan armies aren't used to fighting in. Their eland mounts won't die due to sleeping sickness, but they can't really be used in the traditional style.

I want to show the mixing of people in Ansongo so I want to show people migrating in and out of the region and mixing with those already there. In part, I was inspired with how there are Chinese settler populations all over southeast Asia.
 
The history of Hannibal Barca , one of the greatest military commanders of the ancient world, is one which has fascinated historians and generals throughout the last two millennia, and yet his final secrets seem often set to never reveal themselves, and especially since Hannibal’s exact route over the Alps – the great secret so long disputed for centuries – seems to have at last been uncovered with the recent discovery of petrified elephant droppings, the historian has to sometimes ask himself, what else is there to find?
The-battle-of-the-Tagus.jpg

Whilst archaeological discoveries will, of course, turn up from time to time to help us understand more of Hannibal and of Carthage , it is rare indeed, and perhaps the rarest of all things for an historian to discover a whole Hannibal battlefield. Yet, this is what Ricky D Phillips, an Edinburgh-based military historian, has just done. And it isn’t just any Hannibal battlefield which he has uncovered either, but the site of Hannibal’s first ever battle: the battle of the Tagus.

------------------------------------------------------
The History of Hannibal Barca
 
GREAT STORY DUDE, WELL DONE. Can you make a crossing to south America ?

Like Abubakari II's supposed trip across the Atlantic? It would be interesting to see how the Ansongoans would interact with the natives. Introduction of old world crops e.g. cassava and maize could cause major population growth in Africa. By the way, @leopard9 , are there any civilizations at this point in the Americas?
 
Like Abubakari II's supposed trip across the Atlantic? It would be interesting to see how the Ansongoans would interact with the natives. Introduction of old world crops e.g. cassava and maize could cause major population growth in Africa. By the way, @leopard9 , are there any civilizations at this point in the Americas?

In terms of the Big 3 (Maya, Aztec, Inca), only the Mayans are around in a recognizable form and the other civs will emerge later. New World crops, should they ever reach Africa, would be a massive boon, even larger than OTL because there presumably wouldn't be a massive slave trade draining people and causing political instability during the Columbian Exchange. In terms of interactions...while the Ansongoans and adjacent peoples would be very impressed by the Mayans, Aztecs, and Incans, I wonder if they might look down upon the Native Americans of the South American Atlantic coast. Sub-Saharan Africans, specifically West and West-Central groups, highly valued blacksmithing and saw it as a form of magic and it was a way to create a living space of civilization from the hostile bush. If they meet a people group that doesn't know how to work any kind of metal, what will they think? How would we view people that have no conception of written language?
 
In terms of the Big 3 (Maya, Aztec, Inca), only the Mayans are around in a recognizable form and the other civs will emerge later. New World crops, should they ever reach Africa, would be a massive boon, even larger than OTL because there presumably wouldn't be a massive slave trade draining people and causing political instability during the Columbian Exchange. In terms of interactions...while the Ansongoans and adjacent peoples would be very impressed by the Mayans, Aztecs, and Incans, I wonder if they might look down upon the Native Americans of the South American Atlantic coast. Sub-Saharan Africans, specifically West and West-Central groups, highly valued blacksmithing and saw it as a form of magic and it was a way to create a living space of civilization from the hostile bush. If they meet a people group that doesn't know how to work any kind of metal, what will they think? How would we view people that have no conception of written language?

I’m wonder how African wildlife and plants could change Mesoamérica, but I see first contact being a Mali-like State with Brazil and maybe ending up in the Caribbean from there.

The Tarascan I believe were known for their copper-work, but I do think the stone work and the pyramids would be admired.
 
Well there was at least one (potentially multiple) civilization(s) in the Amazon basin iOTL, but... a) I don't remember at what point they were theorized to have developed, so they may not exist yet iTTL - I think I remember them being fairly 'young' when they were destroyed by diseases (particularly malaria) brought over by the Spanish in OTL's Columbian Exchange - and b) they didn't have metalworking so they probably wouldn't be viewed much - if any - more positively than the other South American natives by the Asongoans, assuming they were even noticed as being different than the others.
 
I am still working on this timeline and hopefully will be done before August 2019. I had a writer's block and battled with depression for a bit, but I've got new inspiration to continue this story.
 
I am still working on this timeline and hopefully will be done before August 2019. I had a writer's block and battled with depression for a bit, but I've got new inspiration to continue this story.

No worries. Take your time and let us know if we can help
 
Top