Halifax.
- Thread starter Fletch
- Start date
merlin
That will be an advantage for Britain as we won't have to pay for it this time around.
Suspect Britain will be investing a lot less in the US TTL as they will have time to produce what they need themselves rather than being thrown into a desperate crisis. France might buy a bit more than the nothing it did OTL do to the German occupation. Even so could see something of a slump in the US as according to some report the western allies spending, followed later on by the US build-up due to the crisis, was what finally brought the US fully out of the great recession.
Steve
Following the armistice with the Germans, events took a turn for the chaotic. The French were having all kinds of arguments with the Americans over defence contracts, which by the treaty they could not receive, and we in our attempts to intervene, accepted that we should buy some of the French ordered equipment, but that we could not take the entire order ourselves for the simple reason we did not require all of the equipment simply pushed the Americans into the position of acting as a salesman who attempts to push people into buying goods to people who do not want them.
On this issue, I had a vigorous exchange of views with the American Ambassador, Joe Kennedy, who stated in quite open terms his belief that the French had reneged on deals on which they had agreed with which the United States Government had entered into in good faith. At the end of the discussion, I had to ask him whether or not he would rather if France had fallen wholesale to the Nazis, extinguishing the light of democracy in continental Western Europe.*
Despite it all, we left on good terms, with the strength of our understanding with the US position enhanced.
On the issue of national security, it was at this point in August, where Churchill brought to my attention the workings of the MAUD committee. He stated that should they succeed, we would have a bomb of such power, that it should be able to wipe out an entire city. With this bomb, we would guarantee our national security for our lifetimes. As such, at Winston’s command, with my blessing, the funding of the committee was almost quadrupled overnight. I need not say of what high importance to our national security that this committee was kept top secret, and as such only few people outside me, Churchill, L-G, John Simon and members of the upper echelons of the intelligence community knew of the existence of MAUD.
It was during this period that another highly secret joint Franco-British committee was formed, which was involved in the causes of our defeat earlier in the year, and how we may change matters for future engagement with the enemy. The importance of this committee cannot be overplayed as it played a major role in the second war with the Nazis. It included views from both sides, many frank and critical of many areas of the conduct of the last campaign. I have to say, as the year went on, the policy of our nation and France was as one. Even during this difficult time, our entente or special relationship as you will burned brighter than ever.
We also agreed upon a new alliance was needed around this time, with which to defend against tyranny. The prime policy aim was to build support against dictatorship. To this end, we managed during the month of August to gain the support of the Greek and Norway.
On the matter of National Service, the need for its maintenance whilst the Nazi menace was still hanging over us was the most sensible option. It was agreed though, that this would be reviewed in twelve months time, should we still be in office. Also, it was at this stage that following discussion with the Cabinet, I had decided to ask the King for a dissolution of Parliament and an October General Election.
It was no small matter, as a peer to ask to continue to remain Prime Minister, but I felt the situation was still serious enough to warrant it. As such, it was agreed that whilst I should not personally stand for the Commons, should the party lose the General Election, then I should resign as leader of the Conservative Party. This was only fair. In a sense, a vote for the Tory or Unionist candidate was also a vote for myself.
The matter of our position to put towards the British people was clear. We would enhance the rights of people to healthcare, improving education and attempting to help increase efficiency in both the matters of agricultural and industrial production, which had begun to hit us with the German U-Boats prowling the Atlantic during the previous war. Primarily though, our position was to be one of increasing the defence of the realm.
It was made clear that we should never be caught in the position of not being ready again. It was vital that our message was made clear in the outmost. In this, I, and my party were clear.
On this issue, I had a vigorous exchange of views with the American Ambassador, Joe Kennedy, who stated in quite open terms his belief that the French had reneged on deals on which they had agreed with which the United States Government had entered into in good faith. At the end of the discussion, I had to ask him whether or not he would rather if France had fallen wholesale to the Nazis, extinguishing the light of democracy in continental Western Europe.*
Despite it all, we left on good terms, with the strength of our understanding with the US position enhanced.
On the issue of national security, it was at this point in August, where Churchill brought to my attention the workings of the MAUD committee. He stated that should they succeed, we would have a bomb of such power, that it should be able to wipe out an entire city. With this bomb, we would guarantee our national security for our lifetimes. As such, at Winston’s command, with my blessing, the funding of the committee was almost quadrupled overnight. I need not say of what high importance to our national security that this committee was kept top secret, and as such only few people outside me, Churchill, L-G, John Simon and members of the upper echelons of the intelligence community knew of the existence of MAUD.
It was during this period that another highly secret joint Franco-British committee was formed, which was involved in the causes of our defeat earlier in the year, and how we may change matters for future engagement with the enemy. The importance of this committee cannot be overplayed as it played a major role in the second war with the Nazis. It included views from both sides, many frank and critical of many areas of the conduct of the last campaign. I have to say, as the year went on, the policy of our nation and France was as one. Even during this difficult time, our entente or special relationship as you will burned brighter than ever.
We also agreed upon a new alliance was needed around this time, with which to defend against tyranny. The prime policy aim was to build support against dictatorship. To this end, we managed during the month of August to gain the support of the Greek and Norway.
On the matter of National Service, the need for its maintenance whilst the Nazi menace was still hanging over us was the most sensible option. It was agreed though, that this would be reviewed in twelve months time, should we still be in office. Also, it was at this stage that following discussion with the Cabinet, I had decided to ask the King for a dissolution of Parliament and an October General Election.
It was no small matter, as a peer to ask to continue to remain Prime Minister, but I felt the situation was still serious enough to warrant it. As such, it was agreed that whilst I should not personally stand for the Commons, should the party lose the General Election, then I should resign as leader of the Conservative Party. This was only fair. In a sense, a vote for the Tory or Unionist candidate was also a vote for myself.
The matter of our position to put towards the British people was clear. We would enhance the rights of people to healthcare, improving education and attempting to help increase efficiency in both the matters of agricultural and industrial production, which had begun to hit us with the German U-Boats prowling the Atlantic during the previous war. Primarily though, our position was to be one of increasing the defence of the realm.
It was made clear that we should never be caught in the position of not being ready again. It was vital that our message was made clear in the outmost. In this, I, and my party were clear.
* Diaries of John Simon said:
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Nice work, Fletcher. Interesting twist on what is a somewhat cliched PoD... okay, maybe cliched isn't the right word (most of the "Halifax cum pM.. teH Nazziis winzz" type stuff seems to come from trolls...).
Of cause, by that stage the King of Norway had already been evacuated... so a goverment in exile probably did exist.
It commenced -and Denmark fell- before the Krauts pushed west, but IIRC there was still a small allied presence in Norway at the time the Battle of France started.
Of cause, by that stage the King of Norway had already been evacuated... so a goverment in exile probably did exist.
I love it so far. What's happening in the East with Japan, and British India? How long do you intend to continue this TL for?
I think he has to renounce his peerage to do this, not sure though, thats from memory.
There have been Lords who ran the government from the House of Lords. It's tricky, though, because the PM then can't defend the government in the Commons. That's one of the reasons they're so rare these days. I believe a 'deputy PM' (whatever the official designation was) was appointed to take questions etc., in the Commons.
It makes it awkward, but not impossible.
When Halifax was approached iOTL, I never heard of any suggestion that he'd resign his title and run for the Commons.
I'll be honest, I'm not 100% sure, but in 1938, the Duchess of Atholl, without giving up her peerage stood as a candidate for a by-election in West Perthshire. She was also the member for said seat for many years beforehand.
It is the case today, certainly, but I have a sneaky suspicion that this changed in the fifties.
I point you to the terms of the armistice agreement. Germany left Norway, and with the exception of the ports, which she held onto in the belief that it would secure Norwegian neutrality and ensure peace with Britain, aside from the German forces in the ports, Norway is not occupied and the legitimate Government has been restored.
Germany does, however occupy Denmark. They refused to leave, for much the same reasons that the British were so adament that Norway and France were liberated. Remember though, in Eastern France, there is an Army of Occupation for the next five years, which is also the case in Southern Belgium. The Netherlands has also been liberated.
You ask why the Nazis went easy?
A few reasons.
Having read Mein Kampf, neither Western Europe, nor Norway were in Hitlers mind for the future of Germany. He controls the industrial regions of France and Belgium, so why place an army of occupation there when they could be used on the Eastern Front?
The Armistice kept, or so he believed at the time, France down and he has, again he believes at this point, ensured Britain is out. This is the basic policy goal in that book. Tbh, I dont think he cared a jot about the Naetherlands or Belgium in the short term.
As a result of all of this, thousands of troops, who would otherwise be occupying France, Norway, Belgium and the Netherlands are moving east. By demanding les, he believes he is gaining more. He can turn west once he has finished off the Soviets.
All this, however depends on a more sane German leadership, but even then, it does meet all of his criteria, France down, Britain out, Germany triumphant.
Thats what makes the European Alliance of France, the UK, Norway and Greece so risky in terms of their policy. France, in the short term at least, is in no position to attack, Norway has German ships in its ports and Greece is being looked at by the Italians. With hindsight, its unbelievably risky as it could almost be viewed at as a declaration of war by the French and British. Luckily, they are too transfixed by the USSR to bother, in the knowledge that their western frontier, in the short term is secure.
There will be a test of the alliance before long however.
I had a similar issue when writing "Images of 1984". I seem to remember that it was Tony Benn that pushed for a change in legislation before he rose to the peerage..???
Guys
Just checked on Wiki, which largely confirmed my scattered memories. Benn was largely responsible for a 'Peerage Act' in 1963. This, amongst other things, allowed him to renounce his hereditary peerage and hence stand for the Commons.
Similarly I vaguely remember talk in ~1982 of something being proposed for Lord Carrington which would allow him to stand in Parliament, or something like that. He then took the blame for the Falkland's mess, in Britain not recognising an attack was coming, and lost influence so the idea was dropped.
Hence, without legislation being passed, which would probably be difficult under those circumstances, I doubt if Halifax could stand for Parliament so I fear you might have to change things Fletcher. Possibly the thing with the Duchess was because, according to the Wiki article until the 63 Act female peers couldn't take a seat in the Lords so possibly that was why she was able to sit in the Commons.
Steve
Norway had to reassess her neutrality in light of the German invasion and occupation of Denmark. This will change the industrial supply lines for Britain. Iron ore will be available from Sweden (via Norway).
In OTL Britain had to import finished steel from America (a more compact import during a time of limited shipping). This promoted the American steel industry at the expense of the domestic producers. British steel plants were closed.
It seems that Britain has ten years to stockpile vital raw materials and improve domestic agricultural production.
Stout Yeomen
Might I suggest that conscription switches to a evenings and weekends call-up? This will promote production and limit domestic consumption. A fortnight off work for maneuvers on Salisbury Plain will make little difference to the running of most businesses. A loss of holiday time for those that get more than 'the works outing' will be missed, but surprisingly few workers could get more than a day off work at this time. Maneuvers will be like a paid holiday.
The shortage of pilots can be addressed in this way too. Plenty of time to clock up the hours. The new Fleet Air Arm will get a chance to make improvements. I would expect Sea Hurricanes and Henleys. They have seen what dive bombers can do (observers in Poland, Norway, ...).
In OTL Britain had to import finished steel from America (a more compact import during a time of limited shipping). This promoted the American steel industry at the expense of the domestic producers. British steel plants were closed.
It seems that Britain has ten years to stockpile vital raw materials and improve domestic agricultural production.
Stout Yeomen
Might I suggest that conscription switches to a evenings and weekends call-up? This will promote production and limit domestic consumption. A fortnight off work for maneuvers on Salisbury Plain will make little difference to the running of most businesses. A loss of holiday time for those that get more than 'the works outing' will be missed, but surprisingly few workers could get more than a day off work at this time. Maneuvers will be like a paid holiday.
The shortage of pilots can be addressed in this way too. Plenty of time to clock up the hours. The new Fleet Air Arm will get a chance to make improvements. I would expect Sea Hurricanes and Henleys. They have seen what dive bombers can do (observers in Poland, Norway, ...).
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I've altered the post so that he does not stand personally for the Commons, although he can still speak in the chamber as per the law rushed through when he became PM. Fairs, fair, I was wrong and as such it did need changed. It seems it was the Duchess of Atholls femininity which allowed her into the Commons.
pg, I have to say that I find your idea of a part-time call up very interesting. Sort of like a greatly enhanced TA. There would need to be an incentive to go regular though, as trained profesional soldiers are desperately needed at the moment in TTL. Remember, the UK is shouldering a far greater share than would otherwise be the case if the French military did not have to cut back.
As to the next installment, barring any unforseen circumstances, tommorow between 9-5..
pg, I have to say that I find your idea of a part-time call up very interesting. Sort of like a greatly enhanced TA. There would need to be an incentive to go regular though, as trained profesional soldiers are desperately needed at the moment in TTL. Remember, the UK is shouldering a far greater share than would otherwise be the case if the French military did not have to cut back.
As to the next installment, barring any unforseen circumstances, tommorow between 9-5..
Well professional soldiers will get some weekends and evenings off. That might make joining up more attractive. Then there is the patriotic need to make amends for defeat. The same thing that Hitler used as an appeal.
Recruits will be aware that war is coming or at the very least likely. They will learn to drive, fly or shoot at the very least. Do we want the all of recruits to be from the heart of the empire? There is time to train Gurkha units. Improve the quality of existing colonial units and recruit further territorial/colonial forces to take on the policing and civil security role.
Like Stalin's Russia, Britain might opt to move industry and population to a safer position. Canada has room to grow and Britain would have to feed fewer people. The evacuation of children could become the evacuation of families. This could have knock on consequences. Supermarine were developing a twin engine spitfire with six 20mm cannon when their works was destroyed by a Luftwaffe bombing raid.
All this movement of machinery, goods and people is going to require a lot more merchant shipping, long range transport aircraft and rolling stock. Not to mention combines, tractors, lorries, cranes, earth movers and prime movers (trucks). Military production can be geared up with civilian products. Lufthansa proved that.
Recruits will be aware that war is coming or at the very least likely. They will learn to drive, fly or shoot at the very least. Do we want the all of recruits to be from the heart of the empire? There is time to train Gurkha units. Improve the quality of existing colonial units and recruit further territorial/colonial forces to take on the policing and civil security role.
- Indian pilots for Singapore
- Indian infantry regulars retrained in tank warfare
- Motorised East African units
- Updated training and equipment across the empire
- Old equipment transferred to new colonial units.
Like Stalin's Russia, Britain might opt to move industry and population to a safer position. Canada has room to grow and Britain would have to feed fewer people. The evacuation of children could become the evacuation of families. This could have knock on consequences. Supermarine were developing a twin engine spitfire with six 20mm cannon when their works was destroyed by a Luftwaffe bombing raid.
All this movement of machinery, goods and people is going to require a lot more merchant shipping, long range transport aircraft and rolling stock. Not to mention combines, tractors, lorries, cranes, earth movers and prime movers (trucks). Military production can be geared up with civilian products. Lufthansa proved that.
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An alternative approach to the "weekend training" idea (which I think the army would fight anyway - giving soldiers the weekend off just isn't the army way!) would be:
1. Conscription to continue - 2 call ups a year, taking in everyone who turned 18 in the past six months. Conscripts to serve a two year term, followed by three years in "first line reserve". Deferments possible (university etc), but anyone deferred serves for three years later.
2. Anyone who can't/won't serve (concensious objecters, those classed medically unfit for active service) serves instead in another role (Auxillery Fire Service, ARP etc). Again divided into 2 years service and three years reserve.
3. First line Reserves have an obligation to attend at a minimum number of drills/weekend camps with their local TA (or an equivilent for reservists in the Navy/Airforce), including at least one two week camp.
This provides numbers for the forces, supplimenting the normal voluntary recruiting, and enabling them to enjoy a steady, predictable flow of recruits. It also provides a good size First line reserve on mobilization, and minimises disruption to the domesti industry.
Britain had the "Empire" design of ships - an Imperial version of the Liberty ship (standardised cargo ship). If we want to improve merchant shipping capability, then the government could offer to subsidise the building of "Empire" ships, via a scheme similar to todays car scrappage scheme.
This has two benefits:
a) Replaces some of the old, clapped out shipping (which in a war, has to sail in Slow convoys) with more modern, more efficient ships (which in wartime can sail in faster convoys, reducing the U boat risk).
b) Provides work for the domestic shipping industry.