Haiti as the first world ex-colonial country?
- Thread starter orangnumpanglewat
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Since you asked...
Pat Robertson said:
Anyways, I think that Louveture is the best chance Haiti's got to start out well.
Was it half the population though? From everything I have read, the Haitian part of the island has always been much, much more densely populated than the Dominican. Indeed, one of the reasons why the Dominicans repeatedly saught annexation by a greater power was to forestall a Haitian invasion which, demographically speaking, always seemed imminent. It was superior Dominican prowess on the battlefield, and Haitian arrogance/military incompotence which kept one from decisively conquering the other in the 19th century.
A sensible Haitian government which didn't alienate the Dominican black and mixed race element wouldn't need to lose that half of the island. What was probably quite popular to lower class Dominicans was the appropriaion of white property, and the abolition of slavery. What wasn't popular was the diabolical behaviour of the Haitian army, which lived off the land for want of supplies. The Haitian government also persecuted the Catholic church, dear to the Dominicans, and levied punitive taxes to fund the French reparations. Get rid of these things, and the Dominicans might be more content to live as Haitians.
With access to Dominican resources (more fertile land than was available in Haiti itself), Haiti has a much larger surface area over which to spread her surplus population.
A sensible Haitian government which didn't alienate the Dominican black and mixed race element wouldn't need to lose that half of the island. What was probably quite popular to lower class Dominicans was the appropriaion of white property, and the abolition of slavery. What wasn't popular was the diabolical behaviour of the Haitian army, which lived off the land for want of supplies. The Haitian government also persecuted the Catholic church, dear to the Dominicans, and levied punitive taxes to fund the French reparations. Get rid of these things, and the Dominicans might be more content to live as Haitians.
With access to Dominican resources (more fertile land than was available in Haiti itself), Haiti has a much larger surface area over which to spread her surplus population.
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DValdron and Cinaed, you two have been peeking at my notes for the "Voodoo Empire" Haitiwank TL I thought up, haven't you? 
My ideas were very close to DV's, though I had them incorporate an independent Mayan Yucatan into the "Federation" during the Santa Anna era revolutions and never considered the canal. I also used a nice contrived convient hurricane to take out the French reconquest fleet ("Lasiren's Breath" or the "Haitian Kamikaze"...it WAS to be a flagrant wank, after all! ) Cinaed: love the Henry II Liberal Syndicalist angle. Brilliant! Yours too, DV: brilliant!
Like stated Haiti has a lot going against it:
* A highly divided population with mutually-distrustful white landowners, black former slaves, and mulatto mercantile middle class. L'Overture and maybe Christophe were the only ones capable of bridging the gap.
* The island's wealth was sugar and tobacco. These need plantation production. Only the lash and gun is likely to get disgruntled former slaves back on the plantations (though Cinaed's "profit sharing" policy holds some promise).
* An independent republic of former slaves after a violent uprising was a direct and symbolic threat to the slave aristocracy across the Americas. Everyone among the world and regional powers had reason to see them fail.
My ideas were very close to DV's, though I had them incorporate an independent Mayan Yucatan into the "Federation" during the Santa Anna era revolutions and never considered the canal. I also used a nice contrived convient hurricane to take out the French reconquest fleet ("Lasiren's Breath" or the "Haitian Kamikaze"...it WAS to be a flagrant wank, after all! ) Cinaed: love the Henry II Liberal Syndicalist angle. Brilliant! Yours too, DV: brilliant!Like stated Haiti has a lot going against it:
* A highly divided population with mutually-distrustful white landowners, black former slaves, and mulatto mercantile middle class. L'Overture and maybe Christophe were the only ones capable of bridging the gap.
* The island's wealth was sugar and tobacco. These need plantation production. Only the lash and gun is likely to get disgruntled former slaves back on the plantations (though Cinaed's "profit sharing" policy holds some promise).
* An independent republic of former slaves after a violent uprising was a direct and symbolic threat to the slave aristocracy across the Americas. Everyone among the world and regional powers had reason to see them fail.
Haiti is much more densely populated as it had about twice the population only one third of the island and one quarter of the arable land. The Dominicans were worried about having to share all their nice space and food with huddled masses in Haiti - they would never be willing to give up the marginal prosperity they had to Haitian immigrants, and any merger that actually helps Haiti would require land redistribution at the point of a gun. Plus the Dominican republics geography lends itself towards separation and improved defense against the west coast.
So you;d have 34-40% that is ethnic, linguistically, and geographically separate from the Haitian centre of power, and the Haitians will have to take from the Dominicans to improve their economy - it's a situation that lends to the Dominicans rebelling every two months or so.
DValdron and Cinaed, you two have been peeking at my notes for the "Voodoo Empire" Haitiwank TL I thought up, haven't you?
Like stated Haiti has a lot going against it:
* A highly divided population with mutually-distrustful white landowners, black former slaves, and mulatto mercantile middle class. L'Overture and maybe Christophe were the only ones capable of bridging the gap.
* The island's wealth was sugar and tobacco. These need plantation production. Only the lash and gun is likely to get disgruntled former slaves back on the plantations (though Cinaed's "profit sharing" policy holds some promise).
* An independent republic of former slaves after a violent uprising was a direct and symbolic threat to the slave aristocracy across the Americas. Everyone among the world and regional powers had reason to see them fail.
Oho please make that Haitiwank
And former slaves gaining their own independent countries gonna spark up slave revolts all over the Americas, just like what happened to those on the other side of European colonialism in Asia, after Japanese victory over the Russians every Asian nation starts to see independence possible
Oho please make that Haitiwank
And former slaves gaining their own independent countries gonna spark up slave revolts all over the Americas, just like what happened to those on the other side of European colonialism in Asia, after Japanese victory over the Russians every Asian nation starts to see independence possible
When I'm done with Viva Balbo (whenever that is) I might be able to do the Haitiwank, if that's the one you my loyal fans choose in the poll. On the last poll (that chose Viva Balbo) the Haitiwank finished last.
AmIndHistoryAuthor
Banned
I for one would like to see such a thread, if anyone hasn't done it already.
Banned dude was racist and ignorant.
I don't think that Haiti's tragic history could have been overcome. But if the French planters did not convince the French governments to try to re-enslave Haiti, and if they hadn't forced Haiti to remain a plantation-based, cash-crop economy to pay that indemnity, and if the USA slave-power hadn't been terrified of the example of a black republic of freed slaves, I think that what would have happened would have been the creation of a society of subsistence farmers desiring to be left alone.
As former slaves (who were in line to be worked to death) I don't believe they would have had the mechanical (esp. ship-building) skills or mercantile experience to have done anything else in the world.
What did happen was that they became a plantation economy, controlled by militarists, creating a tiny ruling elite, and the rest is history.
I don't think that Haiti's tragic history could have been overcome. But if the French planters did not convince the French governments to try to re-enslave Haiti, and if they hadn't forced Haiti to remain a plantation-based, cash-crop economy to pay that indemnity, and if the USA slave-power hadn't been terrified of the example of a black republic of freed slaves, I think that what would have happened would have been the creation of a society of subsistence farmers desiring to be left alone.
As former slaves (who were in line to be worked to death) I don't believe they would have had the mechanical (esp. ship-building) skills or mercantile experience to have done anything else in the world.
What did happen was that they became a plantation economy, controlled by militarists, creating a tiny ruling elite, and the rest is history.
Given. Luckily IAN doesn't stand for bullshit like that, so this forum remains a good place for discussion.
I generally agree the likely outcome is the subsistance farmers, but there was some potential for more. While the Sugar Slaves wouldn't have the skill set there was a notable (typically mullatto) Freemen population and plenty of House Slaves (like L'Overture) that were educated, skilled artisans, skilled businessmen, and skilled tradesmen that could have served as the base for a skilled middle class. OTL Dessalines had them run out or killed.
You have to get past the Owner-induced distrust/disrespect/emnity between slaves and freemen. L'Overture could have possibly done it.
DValdron and Cinaed, you two have been peeking at my notes for the "Voodoo Empire" Haitiwank TL I thought up, haven't you?
I hope that you write it, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun. All too often the response to possibly interesting notions is negativity and nitpicking. That's disappointing. So, go for it. I'd love to read a Haiti Wank, doing it and making it somewhat plausible is an exercise in creativity.
Which only makes it a challenge. But at some point, every empire or state has an undercurrent of improbability. Looking back, it seems like a ridiculously improbable Wank that a marginal European state like England could end up a world dominating superpower in the 19th and early 20th century.
The interests of the white landowners and black former slaves seem utterly incompatible, and the fracture lines go beyond economic to social, political, historical and racial. It's hard to imagine a Haiti where they come through without serious transformation.
Perhaps communals or collectives? This is incompatible with western traditions of hierarchy and private ownership. Nevertheless, there are western examples of collective or communal agriculture, particularly with groups like the Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Doukhoubors. I'm not at all certain that any of these were around or their models developed in the pre-revolutionary era.
However, I'm prepared to take a wild stab and say that an economic model like this has tended to occur naturally from time to time and could take place here.
Would it work? Potentially.
The plantation model had to invest heavily in guns and lashes obviously, so there was a lot of infrastruture and capital overhead involved. That's the thing that everyone overlooks in slavery - sure, slaves are free labour, but it costs a lot of money to keep them in chains and make sure they stay there. Even if you persuade the state to do a lot of your slave enforcement for you (the only way its ever viable), you still run a lot of overhead.
On the other hand, the plantation model proved incredibly lucrative and a lot of wealth flowed through. It wasn't a marginal break-even proposition. So conceivably, redirecting that wealth surplus into a communal enterprise could contribute to viability.
So, with substantially reduced overhead, and therefore more profits to support a standard of living, a communal model could well supplant both plantation/slave operations and individual subsistence economies.
Of course, the point is that slaves and slavery would have some very bad antipathies to plantation or pseudo-plantations. But if even a few communal operations were able to establish themselves and compete with the slave operations, their model might have been very persuasive.
Of course, would the relative wealth of a communal plantation operation be meaningful. The average person doesn't care about foreign trade or revenue. They'd just like a decent standard of living. So its not clear what or how much a communal operation could offer in 18th century Haiti over a subsistence farm operation.
Conceivably communal operations might offer more safety and security than an individually owned subsistence farm operation. Particularly in a Haiti where slavery was not dying an easy death, or which lingered on the edges of civil war and with poor security.
Or it might be strongly religiously motivated. Voodo Communism anyone?
Or possibly there's just a strong emerging demand for consumer goods that subsistence farming can't suppy - china, fabrics and clothing, brass, firearms, etc. etc.
I would think some combination of these factors, with their relative strengths would all be in play, in ways that would shift over time.
What this seems to indicate is Haiti as a hotbed of proto-socialism, likely with strong Voodoo influence.
So maybe the real POD would be some minor regulatory or administrative change that allows these sorts of communal operations to develop and participate in the mainstream Haitian economy, prior to the French revolution?
True, but within a mere two generations, that slave aristocracy would be in deep trouble. Latin America erupted in revolution as early as the 1820's, and by the 1830's, an emancipation movement was well established in England.
The situation was nowhere near stable, and while such an independent republic was a direct and symbolic threat that everyone wanted to see fail.... well, the truth was that just about everyone else was courting failure. A robust and powerful Haiti might well have been perfectly positioned to ride the winds of change.
I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the Sugar Slaves out of hand. The fact that they were slaves and confined to subordinate economic and political roles impaired the skill set, but did not necessarily impair the ability to expand the skill set. It's the particular circumstances that a community finds itself in. Given opportunities, people will take them.
I couldn't speak to the economic viability of such a measure, but it sounds interesting to have some sort of completely different collectivisation or profit-sharing scheme from a TL standpoint.
I also wasn't "dismissing" sugar slaves, just pointing out the necessity of an educated group to train these "kept-ignorant masses". The Mullatto middle class is a great nucleus for such a venture if you can remove the social barriers.
Maybe one day I can do or collaborate on such a TL, but at the moment I'm booked solid.
I also wasn't "dismissing" sugar slaves, just pointing out the necessity of an educated group to train these "kept-ignorant masses". The Mullatto middle class is a great nucleus for such a venture if you can remove the social barriers.
Maybe one day I can do or collaborate on such a TL, but at the moment I'm booked solid.
Geekhis - I absolutely recommend a Haitiwank! I would read it, that's for sure.
One thing I would say: I don't think you're ever going to get a Haiti where white and black co-exist peacefully together. The wounds of slavery will always be too fresh, and no self respecting white Frenchman is going to tolerate Haitian blacks considering themselves equal. At some point, unsavoury as it may be to say so, most of Haiti's whites will either need to leave, or be exterminated. We can condemn Dessalines in our own time for his ruthless methods, but an independent, black ruled Haiti simply can't have a white French population of any meaningful size. This means that Haiti will always lose most of her technical and financial expertise, however independence turns out.
That said, the alternative route is some manner of South-Africa like situation where a tiny white minority dominates a mulatto merchant class, and a black underclass which, although not enslaved, is poor, disenfranchised and dominated. Given the demographic realities of an independent Haiti, however, I would say this is all but impossible.
Your best bet for a coherent, reasonably united Haiti probably lies post- Toussaint (which is a shame, as the man was probably the most compotent of all Haiti's leaders, and the most likeable to boot) and post-Dessalines (as he was ruthless enough to rid Haiti of the white ruling class, providing a degree of internal coherence which the newly independent country wouldn't have otherwise had).
That was why I chose Henri-Christophe as the most compotent, ruthless and intelligent of the post revolutionary leaders. Unless, of course, you can give Tousaaint the ruthless streak that allowed Dessalines to rule the country, then you're laughing.
I'm seriously keen to read whatever you come up with though
One thing I would say: I don't think you're ever going to get a Haiti where white and black co-exist peacefully together. The wounds of slavery will always be too fresh, and no self respecting white Frenchman is going to tolerate Haitian blacks considering themselves equal. At some point, unsavoury as it may be to say so, most of Haiti's whites will either need to leave, or be exterminated. We can condemn Dessalines in our own time for his ruthless methods, but an independent, black ruled Haiti simply can't have a white French population of any meaningful size. This means that Haiti will always lose most of her technical and financial expertise, however independence turns out.
That said, the alternative route is some manner of South-Africa like situation where a tiny white minority dominates a mulatto merchant class, and a black underclass which, although not enslaved, is poor, disenfranchised and dominated. Given the demographic realities of an independent Haiti, however, I would say this is all but impossible.
Your best bet for a coherent, reasonably united Haiti probably lies post- Toussaint (which is a shame, as the man was probably the most compotent of all Haiti's leaders, and the most likeable to boot) and post-Dessalines (as he was ruthless enough to rid Haiti of the white ruling class, providing a degree of internal coherence which the newly independent country wouldn't have otherwise had).
That was why I chose Henri-Christophe as the most compotent, ruthless and intelligent of the post revolutionary leaders. Unless, of course, you can give Tousaaint the ruthless streak that allowed Dessalines to rule the country, then you're laughing.
I'm seriously keen to read whatever you come up with though
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Good points on the difficulty therein. I'd assumed the whites would probably have to flee, but the Mulatto middle class might hold the key.
On the TL I'd love to do it, but I'm afraid that it will have to wait...probably for a long long time.
On the TL I'd love to do it, but I'm afraid that it will have to wait...probably for a long long time.
King Thomas
Banned
Haiti is too small to be a great power without ASB help.However, if Toussant does not end up kiddnapped by the French and Haiti somehow avoids paying reperations, it could end up as a moderately ok place to live rather then a place of horror and misery.