Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
I'm wondering what exactly it would take for Haiti to have a First World economy and quality of life for the majority of its people?
Haiti as a First World nation
- Thread starter Cuāuhtemōc
- Start date
First, the supposed monetary demands of 'reparations' to France must not be paid, that handicaped the country,..
Second,HEAVY lands reforms. Who includes fighting deforestation.
Third.. No internvention of foreign powers. Specialy france but also usa. If CSA survives in this timeline, it may be worse... Imagine if they want to smash a sucessfull 'ne.... republic'.. to destroy a danger...
Second,HEAVY lands reforms. Who includes fighting deforestation.
Third.. No internvention of foreign powers. Specialy france but also usa. If CSA survives in this timeline, it may be worse... Imagine if they want to smash a sucessfull 'ne.... republic'.. to destroy a danger...
A radical repbulcian administration in the 1860s or 70s persaded Haiti to joing the US??
I hate this cliché - why joining the USA is always a 'plus', and the key to modernity and progress?
Adds Haiti in the USA, it may just increase heavily the fear mongering of later KKK types and all. And they may be just an opressed colony.
Seriously? Either staying in the French Empire or being absorbed by some other European Empire is the only way Haiti today could have a 1st world standard of living. Haiti had a lot going against it where it is. It is French Speaking in a hemisphere dominated by Spanish and English. Its native elites were killed or exiled. Even if it acheived independence with its local educated elites more intact, it doesn't even have Hispanola all to itself.
If none of the former Spanish colonies in north and central america could acheive 1st world status, I don't see Haiti doing it.
If none of the former Spanish colonies in north and central america could acheive 1st world status, I don't see Haiti doing it.
There is a certain arrogant colonialistic condescendance, if not plain racism in this. As if 'darkies can't do it alone, they need help and being in our hands...'.
I don't think a first world standard is possible much, yeah, highly improbable. But an Haiti out of misery and with modest state of well being, like the Dominicans, yes.
Haiti could have been much better. And we have an hand into this mess. It's the harsh fact.
Just too small and/or too tropical...
You'll just have to make it part of a greater nation.
The obvious choise is France, but, what about a Haitian Empire? An international widespread slave revolution? Too ASB?
You'll just have to make it part of a greater nation.
The obvious choise is France, but, what about a Haitian Empire? An international widespread slave revolution? Too ASB?
The question was "first world nation". Yes, I can imagine a situation in which Haiti could have been more like Belize, Jamaica, Cuba, Guatemala - ie at least functional country today. Yes, we have a hand in this mess, but the Haitians, including Toussaint, are as responsible for the current state of affairs as anyone.
Still, aren't you incomfortable with all those ideas to just 'shipping them' with a power? as if suggesting Haitians and the like are better not free and self ruling.
To quote TV tropes, infortunate implications indeed.
I actually don't understand what you are even saying.
If you are asking me if I think Haitians today would probably be better off if their personal freedom had been gained by gradual emancipation in the context the French Empire rather than by a violent slave revolt that destoyed its local creole elite and created a "rogue state" to be ignored or victimized by every other regional power I stand guily as charged.
The problem is, its a state of ex slaves. HOW do you think freedom could have been taken?
Look at the USA, it took a war to smash slavery for good. And even then, it backtracked.
Maybe violence is at times inevitable.
Don't be so simplistic.
Slavery was basic to the economies of many British, French, Spanish, Dutch, and Portugese colonies throughout the caribbean, south, and central america. There was a successful slave revolution leading to independence in only one of these places and guess which one is the total basket case today and through most of its history. Slavery was ended peacefully by edict elsewhere, usually within the context of the colonial empire or in a successor state ruled by local creole elites. I would not use the USA as the examnple, because that war was fought by the Federal Government to crush a secessionist movement, only secondarily to free slaves - and as you point out even that war did not completely end de facto slavery.
Slavery took two revolutions and slave revolts to end in France. It took slave revolts to end in Britain. It took slave revolts to end in the Netherlands. It took slave revolts to end in Denmark.
Haiti is a basket case because France and the United States spent the whole 19th century wiping their feet on it. Can't have niggers/nègres succeeding, so we'll ask punitive reparations, block their trade, etc. Hey, there's a small white minority in the east, let's encourage to declare independence with two thirds of the whole damn island (in 1851, the entire population of Hispaniola was 680,000, the population of the dominican republic? Barely a quarter of the total, and the eastern planters tended to dick around a lot with hatian politics; land reform them away and Haiti is far far more stable through the 1840s, Boyer might end up being a succesful president even)
Keeping Toussaint alive as a successful leader after Leclerc's defeat won't do the trick, but would be rather helpful. My sources are rather generous with Dessalines and his behaviour was somewhat understandable given time and circumstances, but it was recipe for future disater.
Butterflying the whole idea of Leclerc's expedition would be even better, both for Haiti and for France indeed. Hispaniola would evolve quite like a French "dominion", achieving complete independence sooner than later (it would depend upon butterflies in the Napoleonic wars) and would be spared a lot of ravages and hatred.
Butterflying the whole idea of Leclerc's expedition would be even better, both for Haiti and for France indeed. Hispaniola would evolve quite like a French "dominion", achieving complete independence sooner than later (it would depend upon butterflies in the Napoleonic wars) and would be spared a lot of ravages and hatred.
No Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine might help, but it'll still take a while.
J.D.Ward
Donor
Not insurmountable objections.
Think of it as the Singapore or Hong Kong of the Americas.
I don't think "First world" is really possible considering the only non white nation to be labled "first world" is Japan. Haiti is no Japan in terms of population, ability to develop industry (the first world generally uses latin america as its dumping ground for products), or military capabilities. Also making Haiti a part of france, doesn't really make it first world in living standards I wouldn't call parts of the US entirely first world.
Yeah but those are mainly hubs to larger markets, I think Haiti could be like that only with a Pod that changes the general economics of the world. Like say perhaps the US is a squabbling bunch of states and Mexico and Bolivar's South America are the main trading partners of Europe.