The Romans didn't have that kind of seperation- in their minds, a good politician would make a good general, and vice versa.
Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot
- Thread starter Hecatee
- Start date
It would be cool to see the Romans interact with the Javanese and their massive Junks(I mean the ship type of junk, get your heads out of the gutter).
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I'm a mature adult and didn't giggle at that sentence.
IOTL the reforms of Diocletian and his successors resolved a big portion of this issue. Offices like the Praetorian prefect, magister officiorum, and others were made into purely administrative posts and senators were reduced to having posts within the city of Rome itself. Of course, this didn't come about until well after the 3rd century crisis unfortunately
Hecatee
Donor
Here don't forget the recent reforms that go in this direction already, but the big difference with China is that the administration is made from the local rich for a given period with some public slaves and their own private staff, with a career path that depends on the vote of their peers and/or imperial approval... military career is already getting separate even if someone can go from one track to the other and vice versa
oh crap, I was sleep deprived and drinking when I wrote that post, should I edit it?
Donald Reaver
Donor
No, let those who find statements easy to titilate them in some fashion enjoy them. Not a requirement to parse your comments in a way that if even possible can not be slanted.
At the moment tech is a bit inconsistent. Steam is at about the point you mention, medicine too, as are engineering and architecture. But ships are way behind 19th century levels, so are chemistry and physics and navigation/geography. Metalworking and agriculture are kind of in-between. But pretty much all of these things are developing very rapidly at the moment and the future looks bright.
Mostly. While more technology and more affluence among the people is at first almost purely beneficial as the middle class continues to grow it will lead for demands for more liberty and democracy in Rome. I bet people will clamor for a return to the republic, except an even more radical version of it with people outside of Rome getting a say too and votes being counted more equally. Ofc the institutions of the empire and the wealthiest elites will seek to fight this leading to instability, unrest and maybe revolution. So yeah you are right about that, it is the politics where the other shoe will drop for the Romans.
But that is still ways away in the future, we are not at 1789-1848 levels yet and it will take a few generations for people's modes of thinking to catch up with the rapid changes going on.
Pozdrav
Perhaps, but keep in mind that this wasn't some divine right monarchy. As far as the Romans were concerned they still had a republic, but rather than investing that authority in the Senate (which had ended very poorly the last time they tried it, not because some evil tyrant took over, but because the Senate became tyrannical) they instead invested all the power in the Emperor. Remember: the fall of the Republic was in part a popular revolt empowered by a large disenfranchised class of veterans against an abusive Senatorial oligarchy.At the moment tech is a bit inconsistent. Steam is at about the point you mention, medicine too, as are engineering and architecture. But ships are way behind 19th century levels, so are chemistry and physics and navigation/geography. Metalworking and agriculture are kind of in-between. But pretty much all of these things are developing very rapidly at the moment and the future looks bright.
Mostly. While more technology and more affluence among the people is at first almost purely beneficial as the middle class continues to grow it will lead for demands for more liberty and democracy in Rome. I bet people will clamor for a return to the republic, except an even more radical version of it with people outside of Rome getting a say too and votes being counted more equally. Ofc the institutions of the empire and the wealthiest elites will seek to fight this leading to instability, unrest and maybe revolution. So yeah you are right about that, it is the politics where the other shoe will drop for the Romans.
But that is still ways away in the future, we are not at 1789-1848 levels yet and it will take a few generations for people's modes of thinking to catch up with the rapid changes going on.
Pozdrav
That's not to say that a republic more like we think of one might show up again at some point as people recognize the importance of the checks and balances on Senatorial power that had broken down by the end of the Punic Wars, but I also wouldn't be surprised if a Roman populace more educated in their history might consider a return to the old Senatorial system as a return to tyranny. Especially if a politically savvy Emperor makes a point of spinning the narrative to make the Emperors the great defenders of the common citizen's liberty against a power hungry Senate (and isn't that an ironic picture?).
Hecatee
Donor
In my view while there are indeed some inventions that are far in advance of OTL, and while some ideas and (major) philosophical changes have been introduced in the empire, the empire's structure has not been changed yet : it is still largely rural, and does not have the food security to actually go to the full industrial model. Rome is not going full steampunk in the comming years !
While literacy in the empire is better than in large part of European history, it is also not that high, especially in the lower classes. And educational tools are not there yet either : no cheap paper yet, so huge limits on information dissemination.
Still, what is disseminated is life changing, especially medicine, and the network of exchange of ideas is larger than OTL's Renaissance networks of ideas and wider, being empire-wide and with reliable sources of financing and ways to send the information, and no religion barriers to prevent exchange between some of the players, with a core of them also sharing the common experience of the Academia Practica or that of the Musaion.
But the most important thing for Rome at present time is not what happens in Rome or in the Empire. It is what happens in China. If we look at OTL's collapse of the Roman empire we see a succession of events in the late 2nd and 3rd centuries :
- Antonine plague in the 170's/180's
- Collapse of the Indian Sea Trade due to internal troubles in China
- Financial troubles impacting the army
- Climate change leading to worse food production in all of Europe
- Devastating earthquakes in Anatolia
While I won't handwave climate change nor the earthquakes, I did away with the plague by keeping it in Persia and providing for better future care. As for the financial troubles brought about by the loss of the huge fiscal gains of the Indian Ocean trade, I've just postponed them by around a century : while I won't go into the details of the impact of the Chinese encounter, I've already mentionned that it will act as a shock therapy to a young and OTL decadent emperor after whom China collapsed OTL but who will now change the destiny of his empire, thus garanteeing financial stability to Rome. I just have to find a way to balance the books so that the Romans stop bleeding bullion East, but that is for later updates...
While literacy in the empire is better than in large part of European history, it is also not that high, especially in the lower classes. And educational tools are not there yet either : no cheap paper yet, so huge limits on information dissemination.
Still, what is disseminated is life changing, especially medicine, and the network of exchange of ideas is larger than OTL's Renaissance networks of ideas and wider, being empire-wide and with reliable sources of financing and ways to send the information, and no religion barriers to prevent exchange between some of the players, with a core of them also sharing the common experience of the Academia Practica or that of the Musaion.
But the most important thing for Rome at present time is not what happens in Rome or in the Empire. It is what happens in China. If we look at OTL's collapse of the Roman empire we see a succession of events in the late 2nd and 3rd centuries :
- Antonine plague in the 170's/180's
- Collapse of the Indian Sea Trade due to internal troubles in China
- Financial troubles impacting the army
- Climate change leading to worse food production in all of Europe
- Devastating earthquakes in Anatolia
While I won't handwave climate change nor the earthquakes, I did away with the plague by keeping it in Persia and providing for better future care. As for the financial troubles brought about by the loss of the huge fiscal gains of the Indian Ocean trade, I've just postponed them by around a century : while I won't go into the details of the impact of the Chinese encounter, I've already mentionned that it will act as a shock therapy to a young and OTL decadent emperor after whom China collapsed OTL but who will now change the destiny of his empire, thus garanteeing financial stability to Rome. I just have to find a way to balance the books so that the Romans stop bleeding bullion East, but that is for later updates...
I am aware the it was the Cesarean faction that was more liberal and that it was the Senate that was the bastion of conservatism and oligarchy (not that Cesareans weren't in favor of oligarchy but they were less greedy than the opposing side). But when the liberal movements of the future spring up (fairly inevitably imo) they will look with rose tinted glasses at the old republic. Not that they will want it back as was, it will be comparable to the renaissance sentiments of OTL, not just to bring it back but make it greater. In the end the proposed republic would be much closer to the way republics are now rather than it was before Rome became an empire.
@Hecatee As long as Romans don't get hooked on tea I am sure you will manage
Well if the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea is at all accurate the Arabian Himyarite Kingdom had started up a proto-Swahili coast with trading colonies. If the Romans play their cards right could out compete the Himyarites out of the trade and have sole monopoly on trade with the Interior African tribes and sell all sorts of neat stuff to the Chinese from Africa, mainly Ivory but if they can conquer the small city states on the Horn of Africa they can have their own source of Frankincense and Myrrh.
Honestly it would be really cool to see state sponsored privateering in the Indian ocean to help Rome dominate the trade routes.
Besides other goods could include glass and amber from the main empire.
I could see it happening that way. Especially if the Emperor at the right time was not a particularly good one. But I also think particularly if the emperors keep a more meritocratic system of appointing their heirs based on ability (and hopefully finding a way to keep the rampant civil war issue under control) rather than birth would neatly avoid many of the issue that arose with monarchies from arising in the first place. The end result might be an evolution of the imperial system rather than a revolution to replace it.
What that could end up looking like is something I'll have to think about for a while, as it is set upon very different foundations than any modern Western political system. It is an interesting thought though.
Edit: Goofed up the quote. That'll teach me to try and post from my phone at 1:45!