Hadrian's Consolidation - reboot

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Hecatee, May 16, 2016.

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  1. TheImperialTheorist To theorize & imagine worlds of possibilities.

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    So Rome will be pushing into Germania, while thoughts of better ways grown in the minds of Romans. Interesting...

    Fantastic update!
     
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  2. Undeadmuffin Muffin want to liiiive !

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    After 160, it peaked at around 60 to 70 millions with around 30 % of them being slaves
     
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  3. Hecatee Traveller of the pasts

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    Thing is, by now the Anthonian plague was in full swing OTL, here it has been prevented due to a combination of the war in the east stopping earlier and the plague being confined to the Iranian plateau. So we're still at OTL's peak and gaining a bit, I do expect the Empire to reach close to a hundred million by 200 but then to fall back toward 90 to 80 million due to climate getting colder at this time
     
  4. vandevere vonhooligan

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    Rome avoided the Plague this TL? I'm slowly catching up on this TL. Really enjoy it. The butterflies from avoiding the Plague are going to be HUGE...
     
  5. NthBelisarius Well-Known Member

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    My point was that the population of the Roman Empire is still the subject of historical debate. Even when we have census data, there is still debate about who exactly was included in the census (All Roman male citizens? All Roman citizens including women?). Everything is an estimate from incomplete data.
     
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  6. fluttersky ~ᴍeʀmᴀiᴅ iɴ a seᴀ oғ aɴoᴍiᴇ~

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    In addition to that map, I made another one.

    I gather from the description that this is the sort of thing the Romans are aiming for (to gain control of the area in bright green):

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Chefsknife Active Member

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    Can someone please explain why adding nettles to the flax will bring more money in. I’m confused about this part of the story. Thanks.
     
  8. vandevere vonhooligan

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    Not that I'm any expert, but I think weaving nettles into the flax might make for a sturdier linen, less apt to tear or rend...
     
  9. Hecatee Traveller of the pasts

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    Oh sorry for the spoiler, but yes events did stop the plague further east...

    Yes, except in the North : they do not want to take all of the Hermunduri lands north of the Boii tribe, just defensive position in the mountains to close off the possibility of raids

    From the info I did find, adding nettles to the flax helped add a touch of shiny to the linen and made it a higher value product.
     
  10. mplustwerk Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if this has already come up and I just missed it, but who is Marcus Aurelius's heir? Considering he's in his late 40's at this point and has already fought and been wounded in a major war you'd think he'd have designated an heir by this point, or at least have a few ideas in mind for one.
     
  11. Praetor98 #TeamBlue

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    I think the Roman Army ought to be made independent of the Provincial Governors. Those people will be threats so long as they have legions of their own to call upon. Make the Legions loyal to one thing, Rome itself, which becomes headquarters for the Army as a whole, not to the Governors. This is why I suggested that the system of Military Districts be implemented as a first step towards making the legions a somewhat less political force.
     
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  12. NthBelisarius Well-Known Member

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    I think the legions are inherently political, they are the reason the Emperor is the Emperor. Any illusions to the contrary were dispelled when Claudius was forced to become Emperor by the legionaries who found him hiding behind a curtain. I don't think you can put that genie back in its bottle.

    I also think the legions will be relatively loyal as long as they know they pay comes from the Emperor, not their current governor. I don't know enough about this time period to know if that is true, but soldiers are generally loyal to those who pay them. The danger comes when the Emperor dies and legions might see an opportunity to put their own candidate on the throne, who will (of course) pay them more. But then, transitions of power are always the most fragile times in any political system.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
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  13. Praetor98 #TeamBlue

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    Actually, that was the Praetorian Guard. And you are right about the whole loyalty to payment. Which is why a fixed pay scale should be introduced for the army.
     
  14. Undeadmuffin Muffin want to liiiive !

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    The pay was pretty low because it was assumed that the soldiers would get loot from conquests
    (around 300 denarii a year OTL)
     
  15. alltheuntold Well-Known Member

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    I really hope it's not Commodus, but I suppose Rome is due for some really bad luck
     
  16. Praetor98 #TeamBlue

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    Then perhaps a general fixed raise in pay? I mean, that should be a lot more effective than just killing an emperor and putting another one in. Seriously, has no one thought about just asking for a raise?
     
  17. Undeadmuffin Muffin want to liiiive !

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    The OTL Roman state was economically unstable and would regularly need loans from the rich senatorial elite and 50 to 60 % of that budget was military.
    Septimus severus raised it to 400/500 in 197 OTL but it is hard to know if it was because of inflation or because he was raising additional legions and needed recruits.

    EDIT: What I mean is that ITTL the Roman territory is both safer and richer, either by the border expension, more balanced trade and technological/economical growth. Without a year of the five emperor and the subsequent civil war, Rome is in better position to face its economical turmoil and bloated military budget. OTL Rome could not afford a constant raise of the military cost that already ate half of its revenue.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2018
  18. Hecatee Traveller of the pasts

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    The name of the heir has not been mentionned yet, only the way he's choosen and educated which is the TTL hadrianic succession system of a promising youth being selected for elite training under the empire's heir apparent, whom is called the Caesar, who himself shall inherit from the Augustus (emperor) who trained him, all with approval from the Senate and with natural sons of emperors being officially banned for life from the throne. So no Commodus in this scenario...
    I do have plans for the succession though

    This has been discussed earlier in the TL, currently it's not being discussed although steps toward such an evolution were taken when some kind of formal training was instituted for senior commanders : we'll slowly see distinct carreer path emerge in the Senate as it does exist in the equestrian order, with the military and civilian curriculum. In practice it does already somewhat exist but will be formalized. This is also tied in the succession issue I mentionned...
    Also remember that one of the reason a full separation of military command and civilian governorship did not happen before the troubled 3rd century is because it was felt that speed of communication prevented such division, the commander on scene had to be able to manage any situation until victory or the arrival of reinforcements. Finaly we see in the later roman empire, where the separation did exist, that it was far from having clear cut benefits with a lot of infighting between military and civilian commanders, especialy as the first became more and more of foreign, barbarian origin while the later became more and more often local elites with littles ties to the roman elite...
     
  19. mplustwerk Well-Known Member

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    So I'm guessing that the spawn of Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are perfectly acceptable? Certainly a way to derail history as we know itXD.
     
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  20. Crangiopharengoma Member

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    I remember this coming up at the time and not being convinced about this change. How does the POD lead to Hadrian so drastically changing the succession? And more importantly why is it so guaranteed to succeed?

    The precedent at this point is for natural sons to succeed emperors. The last time there was a natural son on the scene was Titus succeeding Vespasian and both are seen as great emperors at this point.

    The senate was petrified of standing up to an emperor at this stage too. So even if Hadrian had made this decision, then while I could seen the senate meekly accepting it, equally I don't see them doing anything to oppose another emperor declaring that his natural son would be emperor.

    I like the change and its clearly necessary for the improvements in the roman empire to last, but if Commodus is on the scene I don't see anyone (least of all his father) buying into the 'oddity' that is the new Hadrianic succession.

    I think you need to have a longer run of 'best candidates' being annointed without natural sons to challenge, as well as the senate gaining more confidence to oppose an emperor (in the political sense of opposition not as in revolt) and wield power actively. Only then will the senate have the means and ability to enforce a change like this in the face of an emperor who decides his son is best.
     
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