Had the Axis Won in Eurasia and Africa, Did They Have a Chance at Conquering North America?

four of the loathed Alaska Class CB

And the Alaska class would finally have one of its designed prey to hunt (the Panzerschiff), so that's a whole category the German Navy can write off. Not counting that the Alaska could also face off against the Twins fairly well, as they should have an immune zone and far better performing munitions. Basically, the only thing that outclasses the large cruisers of the US Navy would be the Bismarck class and successors. So... 8 vessels (unsure what the German Battlecruisers would be, so I'm just going to leave that up in the air).

That leaves every single battleship in the US fleet, be it pre-treaty, treaty, or post-treaty to combat the Reich's vessels at the far end of their supply chain. Not that we'd see a battleship vs battleship confrontation as the invasion fleet would be swarmed by more torpedo and dive bombers than they'd have a prayer of fighting off.
 
This
that money in a hole and BURNED it and come out
The Germans were equally bad at other facets of production. Their tanks for instance had to be hand finished, and were welded, a time consuming process that was both impossible to check, and difficult to fix. The Americans by contrast riveted their tanks. This was fast, easy to check, and simple to fix. Sherman’s could literally be driven off the assembly line. No touch-ups required.



The Nazis built up by overheating their economy unsustainably.

Also, what you’ve laid out is NOT evidence of efficiency in any form.


Your wrong on the tank bit. Most if not all American tanks were largely casted and welded. This was a major bonus over riveting. Welding is superior in strength and lighter in weight. Rivets on armored vehicles tend to pop off when hit by the enemy. On the inside they can bounce around like a bullet.
 
And the Alaska class would finally have one of its designed prey to hunt (the Panzerschiff), so that's a whole category the German Navy can write off. Not counting that the Alaska could also face off against the Twins fairly well, as they should have an immune zone and far better performing munitions. Basically, the only thing that outclasses the large cruisers of the US Navy would be the Bismarck class and successors. So... 8 vessels (unsure what the German Battlecruisers would be, so I'm just going to leave that up in the air).

That leaves every single battleship in the US fleet, be it pre-treaty, treaty, or post-treaty to combat the Reich's vessels at the far end of their supply chain. Not that we'd see a battleship vs battleship confrontation as the invasion fleet would be swarmed by more torpedo and dive bombers than they'd have a prayer of fighting off.

I mean, there's only like... 390 strike bombers each for the KM battleships. I'm sure the superior Germans can handle that with their wonderfully efficient AA! :p
 
OP didn't say it had to be immediately after WW2, did he?

If the nazis had everything from Plan Z, and bombers able to cross the Atlantic, or V-X rockets... of course, until then the US might have nukes and whatnot.
 
OP didn't say it had to be immediately after WW2, did he?

If the nazis had everything from Plan Z, and bombers able to cross the Atlantic, or V-X rockets... of course, until then the US might have nukes and whatnot.

Plan Z wasn't supposed to be done until 1948; assuming that it would be delayed a year or two would put it at 1949/1950. If we assume the Germans would somehow achieve victory by 1944 (essentially impossible) then that gives then 5/6 years to get ready for their first expansion.

And, well, what would the US and the remainder of the British Empire, etc be doing during that time? Securing as many resources and territories as possible. I know OP says Africa, but how the Germans secure nearly the entire of Subsaharan Africa which is dependent on having a strong Navy is somewhat absurd. There's no way that they could practically be thrown out of the continent.
 
The first thing to keep in mind is that if there is no embargo or other U.S action in the Pacific, the Japanese never engage the U.S. or UK. Much as the Navy might want some additional basing to the South the Army is never going to allow a distraction from the war in China. That sort of stops the scenario cold right out of the gate.

However, lets look at the chances of the Reich engaging the U.S.

As noted, the Reich's fleet is, even in its most unlikely configuration, going to be notably weaker than the USN (no matter how fast the KM builds the USN will have a massive head start and what were, by 1942, the most efficient yards the world had ever seen). What has not be noted is that the USN would, in this scenario, be much LARGER than IOTL.

As a brief series of examples - IOTL the U.S. cancelled three Midway class CVA eight Essex long hull CV, failed to complete two Iowa class BB that were partly completed, cancelled five Montana class super BB, four of the loathed Alaska Class CB, fifteen CA (6 Oregon City class, 9 Des Moines class), 17 CL (11 Fargo class, 6 Worcester class), 66 DD (12 Sumner class, 52 Gearing class) and 113 SS (62 Balao class, 51 Tench class) simply because the war was won and there was no enemy left to oppose. The ships cancelled would outnumber the proposed KM in sheer number, much less in quality.

In addition to this, the Western Hemisphere would also undoubtedly host most of the Royal Navy (nice thing about a ship is that it moves, if things are going tits up at Portsmouth, there is always Halifax) along with the Royal Family/British Government in Exile, probably in Ottowa. While small compared to the USN, the RN would actually be pretty much an overmatch for the the Plan Z KM, especially in carriers.

So you have a naval force outnumbered at least 5-1, very likely more than 5:1 in critical areas (don't even look at aircraft, the fully built out Essex and Midway classes would mount ~3,900 combat aircraft, the KM ships might manage 150, this doesn't include the now undamaged pre-war Lexington, Yorktown, and Wasp class ships or the Royal Navy decks) that would have to destroy the Western Hemisphere forces before any sort of landing could even become a fever dream. That doesn't begin to account for the mind numbing number of heavy and medium bombers, land based fighter bombers and land based pure interceptors that would be available to face the KM. IOTL the U.S. produced 10,000 P-38, 9,500 P-39, 15,000 P-51, 3,300 P-63 (if there is one number that demonstrates just how much excess capacity the U.S. had, 3,300 Kingcobras has to be a strong candidate) 13,700 P-40, 15,600 P-47, 7,400 A-20, 2,500 A-26 12,700 B-17, 18,500 B-24, 9.800 B-25, 5,200 B-26, and 3,900 B-29. These would be opposed by the survivors of the 150 KM aircraft that had already faced well over 4,000 carrier aircraft mid-Atlantic (BTW: the actual number of carrier aircraft produced is ~33,000 fighter-bombers, 14,000 dive bombers, and 9,800 torpedo bombers). Now with the changes in this scenario the number of aircraft by type will undoubtedly be different, with more of the later model aircraft and fewer of the pre-war designs, this of course also means that, as an example, rather than facing 7,000 SB2C Helldivers it will be 11,000 AD-1 Skyraiders.

tl;dr: Impossible.

NGL, I kind of want to see this play out in a simulation, just for the laughs.
 
NGL, I kind of want to see this play out in a simulation, just for the laughs.

Our wings will blot out the sun.

And hey, doesn't matter if your torpedoes work or not if you have so many lodged in the hull of the enemy that their weight is dragging the deck below water :p
 
OP didn't say it had to be immediately after WW2, did he?

If the nazis had everything from Plan Z, and bombers able to cross the Atlantic, or V-X rockets... of course, until then the US might have nukes and whatnot.

Yeah no. Not happening even then, not least cause the Germans have to spend a significant part of their resources on murdering half of europe, securing the occupied parts of Russia, and of course, building the Great Wall of Russia and a stadium able to fit half a million people in it. When offered a choice between insanity and rational military priorities, the Nazi's are picking the first one EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Of course even if they picked the second it wouldn't matter, because they still cannot beat the USA in production unless everyone across the ocean's been chugging lead paint like it's going out of style.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
OP didn't say it had to be immediately after WW2, did he?

If the nazis had everything from Plan Z, and bombers able to cross the Atlantic, or V-X rockets... of course, until then the US might have nukes and whatnot.
Y'all did notice the whole 96,000 fighters thing, right? The U.S. can effectively keep that up indefinitely, recycling one generation as material for the next.

The "best case" the Reich can achieve is a Cold War similar to OTL that lasts until the gross inefficiencies in the Nazi system (e.g. killing off the folks you need to replace the workers you are exterminating through labor, which is the only way to keep the economy rattling along) cause it to collapse under its own weight.
 
Last edited:
Y'all did notice the whole 96,000 fighters thing, right? The U.S. can effectively keep that up indefinitely, recycling one generation as material for the next.

The "best case" the Reich can achieve is a Cold War similar to OTL that lasts until the gross inefficiencies in the Nazi system (e.g. killing off the folks you need to replace the workers you are exterminating through labor, which is the only way to keep the economy rattling along) cause it to collapse under its own weight.

Not to mention the brain drain and labor loss caused by people fleeing the Fascist regimes of Europe - sure, few Germans would leave, but many of the British and other occupied nations would trickle out over the years, especially those that are strategically important. Even those who aren't would attempt to leave, reducing potential labor pools.

And let's not forget that with Naval Supremacy, the US can intervene where it wants, and with no Britain in this scenario to protect, the US+British Empire+Etc are free to engage the world over, as there can be no reprisal meted out on the US mainland for years, if not decades. It's far more likely the Germans would be driven out of Africa than the other way around - they certainly won't be able to access resource-rich portions of the continent anyway, so they'll be limited to the resources of Europe and perhaps the Middle East (until that is isolated and removed as well).

Heck, there'd be a good case to isolate the Suez right now - that way the furthest south Axis base can be wrapped up... But you really don't need to do that to occupy Italian East Africa. So that'd be a bit of a waste.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Y'all did notice the whole 96,000 fighters thing, right? The U.S. can effectively keep that up indefinitely, recycling one generation as material for the next.

The "best case" the Reich can achieve is a Cold War similar to OTL that lasts until the gross inefficiencies in the Nazi system (e.g. killing off the folks you need to replace the workers you are exterminating through labor, which is the only way to keep the economy rattling along) cause it to collapse under its own weight.
And this is assuming that the Nazis are even able to restrain themselves long enough for a Cold War to develop in the first place
 
One of the reasons the Axis failed is the shortage of labor, both for the economy and the military. A large part of this was due to the insane policies regarding the Jews and other 'sub-humans'. If the 6 million killed in the camps had continued to be a integral part of the economy I would think the economic situation would have been slightly different. Also taking that number and extrapolating out the number of men of military age another 250,000 men added to the armed forces is probably a conservative number. That's a additional Army of 10 to 12 divisions with all the needed support units. Think that might have been useful when invading the SU?

The other crazy part is Hitler was originally loved by a large segment of the general population because he put them back to work and their lives generally got better between 33 and 39. A full belly and a steady job is a powerful incentive after the economic experiences that the German population went through between the 20's and early 30's. Had the policy for conquered lands been a welcome into the Reich as equals and incorporated the indigenous peoples while improving their lives, Germany wouldn't have had to 'garrison' those territories. (Another labor/resource savings) Particularly in Russia this would have been the reaction as most country folks did not like the Stalin government.

Again this is such a radical change in the governing strategy of the Nazi's that's it's crazy but it's the only way I see the OP's original scenario even having a remote chance of happening.
 
No. America by the end of WW2 had half of entire world’s industrial production. No way they can beat the US Navy in hometurf.

In this “Axis Wins” timeline Europe would be presumably be bombed out, and it would take decades for Japan to develop China’s industry. Not to mention the US probably be doing the same for the Western Hemisphere.

An Axis Victory in Europe timeline is already highly unlikely, invasion of the Americas? Pure ASB.

I would say Axis Victory in Europe is ASB in and of itself , invading the Americas afterwards is ASB squared.
 
Other people have excellently outlined why it's impossible for the Reich to invade the continental USA short of ASBs serving as transports and strategic bombers, but I will add simply that it is quite possible that you'll see an island-hopping campaign from Iceland to the Faroes to the Orkneys and Shetlands and from there into GB. The USA and Allies aren't going to sit passively waiting for the Nazis to come get them, after all. The USN and RN can have naval dominance of the Atlantic, and once proper sonar is developed ASW will be a piece of cake...
 
I will add simply that it is quite possible that you'll see an island-hopping campaign from Iceland to the Faroes to the Orkneys and Shetlands and from there into GB. The USA and Allies aren't going to sit passively waiting for the Nazis to come get them, after all. The USN and RN can have naval dominance of the Atlantic, and once proper sonar is developed ASW will be a piece of cake...

How? Do you think the USN and the RN will just sit there and allow the Nazis to do that?
 
I think the scenario cannot be done as a conventional war without a pod that both allow Germany to win and turn the US into sleeping beauty.
A massive discrepancy in WMDs is a better bet which could more easily be the same pod that allowed Germany to win.
 
Top