Had Germany deported all European Jews to Madagascar, how many of them would have

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This was never a plan seriously considered during the war as at a bare minimum it would have required both victory over the British and over the Soviet Union, and it's debatable as to whether or not the Nazi regime could even accomplish the first.
 

BlondieBC

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It would have required at a minimum a peace treaty with the UK. This treaty would have to accept Germany having de facto control of French and Belgium Colonies. Germany would also need to win or otherwise effectively knock the soviet union out of the war. And, while this is happening, Hitler would need to decide to delay the Final solution until after a military victory. This is very unlikely.

If Germany had tried to send some Jews to Madagascar, it will have been some trivial effort before the Germans determined it was impractical. Perhaps some converted Vichy merchant ships drop a few thousand people in Madagascar. It would be no more than a minor footnote in History.
 

Francois

Banned
I get that deporting the Jews to Madagascar would have been very unrealistic, but what if Hitler decided to do it anyway, since for some reason he had a change of heart and decided that killing the Jews immediately was a little too extreme? How many Jews would have been able to survive in Madagascar?
 
I get that deporting the Jews to Madagascar would have been very unrealistic, but what if Hitler decided to do it anyway, since for some reason he had a change of heart and decided that killing the Jews immediately was a little too extreme? How many Jews would have been able to survive in Madagascar?

Considering that the island now holds a population of just over 20 million, and considering that survival is a great incentive, I think a large number would have survived. It's not like being sent to Antarctica. Too many "what ifs" required for it to have ever happened, but survival on site shouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: Unless, of course, the Nazis maintained local control and continued to act like Nazis. :(
 

Francois

Banned
Considering that the island now holds a population of just over 20 million, and considering that survival is a great incentive, I think a large number would have survived. It's not like being sent to Antarctica. Too many "what ifs" required for it to have ever happened, but survival on site shouldn't be an issue.

My question is whether Germany (or its allies) would have been able to supply enough food to Madagascar after the war starts going badly for them? Then again, the British or Americans could always capture the island at that point.
 
My question is whether Germany (or its allies) would have been able to supply enough food to Madagascar after the war starts going badly for them? Then again, the British or Americans could always capture the island at that point.

If necessary, supplies could have been run in, I'm certain, though not by Germany, who would not have held the island in the event of war. America shipped tons of supplies to countries all over the world in those days. But Madagascar contains some lush territory; with care to avoid wrecking the ecosystem (ie - no slash-and-burn farming) the population could have fed itself, even if a large number of immigrants were sent there. Also, the Indian Ocean is right there - fish galore. So an imagined Jewish colony would have climate, environment and resources all in their favor. Immediate survival is not in question.
 
Would European Jews have the skillset needed to survive and thrive in a tropical environment?

The ones from the shetls in the rural areas might at least know how to farm, but I thougth the Jewish population was largely urban.
 
Would European Jews have the skillset needed to survive and thrive in a tropical environment?

The ones from the shetls in the rural areas might at least know how to farm, but I thougth the Jewish population was largely urban.

And they were largely urban when they moved to an arid country, outnumbered and surrounded by hostile nations. And yet they survived. Why wouldn't they also survive under what appear to be more favorable circumstances? Strictly in terms of a population's ability to support itself, Madagascar does not seem to present any difficulties.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
My question is whether Germany (or its allies) would have been able to supply enough food to Madagascar after the war starts going badly for them? Then again, the British or Americans could always capture the island at that point.

Germany would not provide food for Madagascar, even if the war goes well. They might provide some hand tools and seeds, but i doubt it. Expelling the Jews was only consider because of logistical issues with killing them.

Germany also consider killing all excess Poles, but decided relocating them would be easier. The location of the relocation was never determined. Most of the surviving documents of low level workers, not high-level, serious proposal. It is closer to a captain in the USA pentagon planning an invasion of Argentina, than a general planning a possible war with Iran.
 
Considering that the island now holds a population of just over 20 million, and considering that survival is a great incentive, I think a large number would have survived. It's not like being sent to Antarctica. Too many "what ifs" required for it to have ever happened, but survival on site shouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: Unless, of course, the Nazis maintained local control and continued to act like Nazis. :(


Since the Jews would have been stripped of all citizenship and been governed by an SS officer what do you think would happen?
 
Since the Jews would have been stripped of all citizenship and been governed by an SS officer what do you think would happen?

What I think is that, if this project had ever been more than a fleeting pipe dream, it would have ended very badly. We all know how unlikely and impractical it is, to say nothing of the likely outcome of having Nazis governing Jews. But the question that was asked, and to which I have tried to confine myself, was:

How many Jews would have been able to survive in Madagascar?

I've taken that to mean simply, could they have supported themselves? And I think it is clear that they could have.
 

Francois

Banned
Germany would not provide food for Madagascar, even if the war goes well. They might provide some hand tools and seeds, but i doubt it. Expelling the Jews was only consider because of logistical issues with killing them.

Germany also consider killing all excess Poles, but decided relocating them would be easier. The location of the relocation was never determined. Most of the surviving documents of low level workers, not high-level, serious proposal. It is closer to a captain in the USA pentagon planning an invasion of Argentina, than a general planning a possible war with Iran.

I think that Germany could have provided some food for the Jews in Madagascar had Hitler had a change of heart. As you said, Hitler also planned to kill or deport all Poles, but since he was unable to do that, he still provided food for them.
 

Francois

Banned
What I think is that, if this project had ever been more than a fleeting pipe dream, it would have ended very badly. We all know how unlikely and impractical it is, to say nothing of the likely outcome of having Nazis governing Jews. But the question that was asked, and to which I have tried to confine myself, was:



I've taken that to mean simply, could they have supported themselves? And I think it is clear that they could have.

Yeah, my question was asking how many Jews would have survived had the Nazis deported all of them to Madagascar and tried their best to keep them alive (just in case they need to use them for slave labor or the war effort later on).
 
I think that Germany could have provided some food for the Jews in Madagascar had Hitler had a change of heart. As you said, Hitler also planned to kill or deport all Poles, but since he was unable to do that, he still provided food for them.

Hitler would not have had such a change of heart. Period. Neither would Eichmann or Himmler.
 
Hitler would not have had such a change of heart. Period. Neither would Eichmann or Himmler.

Agreed, the whole holocaust showed that. The Nazis wasted time, money and manpower to slaughter the Jews that they could have used to fight the Russians. If they were halfway sane they would have (at the very worst) used them as slave labor. If Hitler were completely sane he would have used antisemitism as merely a way to gain power and slowly deemphasized it over time so he could use the highly educated work force.
 

Francois

Banned
Hitler would not have had such a change of heart. Period. Neither would Eichmann or Himmler.

I'm not saying it's very realistic; I'm just saying "what if Hitler had a change of heart"? Assume that he hit his head really hard on something and he finally got some sanity knocked into him.
 
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