Had Argentina Been Anglophone, Would It Have Been More Prosperous & Populous Today? (ctd.)

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by dovibear, Nov 22, 2018.

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  1. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Because in this case, the natives are getting money and safe haven from neutral countries.

    Wilhem II's father read a different newspaper a few days before conceiving his son. As a result, he put slightly less mustard in his sandwich. As a result, a different set of spermatozoids were produced. That is the butterfly effect. The genetic makeup of any mammal owes a lot to chance. The moment news from the POD reach an area, everyone who was born after the news isn't born the same way, or born at all.
    The second industrial revolution isn't going to be butterflied away. Aviation appearing by the early 20th century (or maybe even later 19th century) won't be butterflied away. General trends won't be butterflied away. But WWI was too much of a fluke. It was literally triggered because one particular terrorist went to a particular place to have a sandwich. A general war in Europe may still happen. Or not. Or it may happen in the 1920s, after some other minor war shows the impact of trench warfare, so this alt WW1 happens differently.
     
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  2. Lenwe Well-Known Member

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    @dovibear @juanml82 What do you guys think if I start a new thread and we could discuss if it´s more difficult the conquest of the Southern Cone Natives than the African and New Zealand ones?
     
  3. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Be my guest, but I don't know much about the conquest of South Africa and New Zealand, other than the local didn't have the kind of support they could expect in the Southern Cone
     
  4. dovibear Well-Known Member

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    It's likely that Wilhelm II's father reads the same newspaper, given that we're talking about Prussia here, and Prussia gets only an infinitesimal amount of influence, if anything, from Argentina and from many far-flung corners of the British Empire. And I somehow don't think that the existence of the sandwich shop near the site of Archduke Ferdinand's assassination in Sarajevo, Bosnia, would be butterflied away by events happening over a century earlier in far-off South America.

    Maybe in another forum, not this one.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  5. dovibear Well-Known Member

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    At first, once again, the British might have basically a few trading depots in scattered spots along the southern Pampa and Patagonian coasts (e.g. White Bay/OTL Bahia Blanca, Carmen de Patagones, Port Desire/OTL Puerto Deseado) that would double as forts. These British settlements would be established largely on the basis of trading with those among the local indigenous people who are friendly, admittedly a relative handful; after all, isn't trade by far the number one motivation of the British coming to the Southern Cone in the early/mid 19th century in the first place?! And the defensive functions carried out by the forts would be there to try as much as possible to minimize the raiding, kidnapping, etc. I see such settlements as the basis of further British/European expansion in those areas once the indigenous peoples as a whole are subdued years later (in the case of the southern Pampas) or decades later (in the case of Patagonia).
     
  6. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Argentina built plenty of forts since its independence. It still took decades to pacify the region because of the poor communications of the era. Forts can't see beyond line of sight, so by the time the survivors of a raided settlement can warn the militias at the fort, the raiders may very well be hundreds of kilometers away. It took Rosas expeditions (which killed tens of thousands), connecting the forts with telegraphs, building a huge (hundreds of kilometers long) trench to prevent the raiders from (easily) taking cattle away and then the final expedition of Julio Roca to finally seize the area. All this happened between the 1820s and 1878 and benefited from the faster firing Remington rifles with smokeless gunpowder. In 1810 the British would have muskets (one shot, plenty of smoke), no telegraphs and no allies in the region.

    With that said, the Spanish did built a colony in Carmen de Patagones by keeping the natives friendly to them. But they weren't able to expand it. Those same natives defeated a Brazilian attempt to seize Carmen de Patagones in the 1820s... and a different set of natives offered their help to defend Buenos Aires from the British during the 1806-1807 invasion.
     
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  7. Lenwe Well-Known Member

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    You forget mention one important detail, This was done also in Coordination with the Chilean Goverment that in the same epoch was doing the Pacificacion de la Araucania (1861-1883) to be a completely and successful conquer the area, and even then when the Mapuches make a strong resistence in both side of the Andes in and area of more than 750.000 km2 without Trains or modern form of transport, they weren´t pushovers
     
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  8. LouisTheGreyFox The Hyperactive Furry Historian

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    Weren't much of the natives in Patagonia exterminated by the Chileans and Argentines in the late 1800's? I recall that the Selknam people were literally wiped out by the Chileans that today currently there is only native speaker of the language left.

    So that said if the British ended up taking over Rio de la Plata (Argentina and Uruguay included), perhaps genocide will happen towards the natives of Patagonia but in lesser numbers than in OTL. Plus I can see much of this Patagonia being colonized by Welsh settlers (Rawson and Trelew were settled by Welshmen), so it hard to say what the Welsh themselves would do in regards to relations with the local natives. Perhaps they would have friendly relations and even intermarry with the locals. Be quite interesting to see a native mixed with Welsh heritage and has a Welsh surname.
     
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  9. Lenwe Well-Known Member

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    Selknam People aren´t Patagonian Natives, they were Tierra del Fuego Natives, his, hate to use this word, range and lands were limited to the Isla Grande de Tierra del Fuego and nearby Fjords.
    What @juanml82 and I are speaking it´s about it´s the Mapuches and Araucanized Pampeans, Puelches and Tehuelches,

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  10. dovibear Well-Known Member

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    Even IOTL, the Welsh settled in Chubut, and many English and especially Scottish and Irish people settled further south in Patagonia plus Tierra del Fuego.
     
  11. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, after the natives were conquered in 1879
    As for Welsh-Mapuches, here http://www.batimes.com.ar/news/arge...on-mapuche-leaders-extradition-to-chile.phtml and his younger brother, who used to have a fotolog back in the day https://www.infobae.com/sociedad/20...da-pero-mapuche-se-nace-y-se-es-para-siempre/ (I can't find sources in English)
     
  12. Dorozhand Queer Hedonistic Communist

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    Why are we even considering this? This question is absurd and frankly offensive. It's dehumanizing and culturally hegemonic.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  13. Dorozhand Queer Hedonistic Communist

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    I don't know what you meant by this, but that is rather imperialistic language.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  14. Lenwe Well-Known Member

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    Most of us are not considering it, but are dedicated in explain why it´s not feasible, and how the change of one colonial master for another will signify that the new dominated country will be overall in the same or worse situation
     
  15. Dorozhand Queer Hedonistic Communist

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    That's a relief
     
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  16. dovibear Well-Known Member

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    Let's just say that with the British in charge it would have been overall in the same dismal state as OTL (e.g. rebellions) until the economic boom starts around the 1860s, then it's perhaps in a somewhat better state even than OTL in the 1860s-1930s boom years (when the virtues of the British political and economic system start to become more apparent, maybe less so to the Spanish side), then from the 1930s down to today it's in a much better state than OTL (when the virtues of the British system really kick into high gear and the living standards on the Spanish side as well as the Anglo side get raised).
     
  17. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Which are those virtues?
     
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  18. dovibear Well-Known Member

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    More equitable land + income distribution (at least in some places), more rule of law, more and earlier voting rights, and it goes on and on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  19. Lenwe Well-Known Member

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    You know that Argentina in the same way The USA give land for free?
    That Argentina granted Universal Male suffrage(with qualifications) since 1854, before The UK?
    The rule of law was a imposed since 1862?
    What you have in your List that goes and goes that could seriously be a difference?
    Capital? Argentina received lots of it, mostly from French, English and German sources, since 1860, if anything being a English dominion Will curtail The investment of No- english sources.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
  20. juanml82 Well-Known Member

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    Equitable land ownership (ie, small family owned farms instead of large tracks for relatively few landowners) is important. But it relays on the political realities in the ground. Any invading force will need local support and that support will have to be bought with large tracts of land.
    Argentina had "rule of law" in effect since the end of the civil wars
    Qualified universal male suffrage, as Lenwe said, existed since the 1850s - but the province of Buenos Aires had it since the 1820s. Did you know that? Now, elections were a farce, but the idea that power comes from popular vote starts in the 1820s.
    What else do you have?
     
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