Habsburgs & Genetics

Uh no. Double first cousins would imply that both their parents were siblings of the other partner's parents. François' closest relation to Maria Theresia was through his paternal grandmother (Eleonora Maria Josepha of Austria) who was half-sister to Maria Theresia's paternal grandfather. Ergo second HALF cousins
Kellan you have the wrong Francis and Maria Theresa... Landmass was surely talking about Francis II/I of Austria and his second wife Maria Theresa of Naples who fitted perfectly the bill as he was the son of Leopold of Austria&Tuscany (son of Maria Theresa and Francis I Stephen) and Maria Luisa of Spain (daughter of Charles III of Spain and Maria Amalia) and she was daughter of Ferdinand IV of Naples (son of Charles III of Spain and Maria Amalia) and Maria Carolina of Austria (daughter of Maria Theresia and Francis Stephen). Also Francis’ second wedding was part of a triple one as his brother Ferdinand III of Tuscany married Luisa of Naples and their sister Clementina of Austria married the future Francis of Naples and Francis’ third wife was another first cousin
 
I think there's a number of factors that don't just apply to the Habsburgs, though they were obviously one of the worst manifestations. The big one was the limited number of Catholic houses left after the reformation which shrank the pool in Germany. Then, ironically, the fecundity of Ferdinand I and Anna, their daughters married into the house of Bavaria, Mantua and Tuscany such that the remaining Catholic houses ended up at least somewhat related going into the 17th century. This also brought about the first round of avuncular marriages when their sons Ferdinand II and Charles II both married nieces as the pool of available Catholic brides was so small (especially once you eliminate the French, who had no prospects available in the late 16th century as they were going through a succession crisis of their own). Which leads to another point, many other houses, such as Bavaria and France were almost just as bad as the Habsburgs. As pointed out double first cousins statistically share about the same amount of DNA as uncles and nieces so Philip IV's avuncular marriage to Mariana of Austria is no worse really that Louis XIV's to Maria Theresa of Spain. Not to mention that Marie de' Medici, as a grand-daughter of Ferdinand I, was a first cousin of Philip IV's mother, Margaret, thus Louis XIV's parents Anne of Austria and Louis XIII were already second cousins.

Bavaria was, I think, worse; Albert V was a second cousin once removed to Ferdinand's daughter Anna, their son William V married Renata of Lorraine who was his second cousin, again through a Habsburg line (maternal descendants of Philip the handsome), their son Maximilian I first married his first cousin Elisabeth of Lorraine then his niece Maria Anna of Austria (who's father Ferdinand II was the child of an avuncular marriage between Charles II of Austria and Maria Anna of Bavaria and so she was also Maximilian's first cousin once removed), their son Ferdinand Maria, somehow turned out just fine and married Henriette Adelaide of Savoy who, as a grand-daughter of Marie de' Medici and Catherine Michelle of Spain, already had both Spanish and Austrian Habsburg blood, their son Max Emmanuel then married Maria Antonia of Austria, his second cousin (who was herself the product of an avuncular Habsburg marriage). So it's not surprising that their son Jose Ferdinand died young as he had a pedigree just as bad as Charles II. Thankfully Max Emmanuel then married a Sobieski princess injecting desperately needed fresh blood that probably saved the Bavarian Wittlesbachs from their own extinction event.

Anyways, point of this is that this issue wasn't limited to the Habsburgs, if you dig around all the major Catholic houses had this problem, it's just not as evident because they didn't always have the same name. Perhaps what made the difference in other cases is that the other houses managed to get a break every 2nd or 3rd generation and 'only' marry a second cousin or at least someone more distantly related than niece or 1st cousin. I think the Habsburgs lost that opportunity only though a few unfortunate deaths, Balthasar Carlos, for example, was from parents only distantly related (2nd cousins) and his marriage to Mariana would have been 'only' to a first cousin. Likewise Ferdinand IV of Austria could have married someone more distantly related than his brother Leopold's OTL marriage to his own niece. They really needed to get some fresh blood in the early 17th century after the previous series of avuncular and first cousin marriages. The only real move where I think there was a better choice available was Philip IV's marriage to Mariana, if he had married someone else, say Anna de' Medici or Eleonora Gonzaga, or maybe even Isabella Clara of Tyrol as a second wife he could have saved his line. This in turn would likely have helped the Austrian line as well.
Well Ferdinand IV of Austria likely would have married his fiancé aka his first cousin Maria Theresa of Spain but that would still be a better wedding than both his brother’s (who married their niece) and Maria Theresa’s OTL (Louis XIV was her double first cousin and without Maria Theresa he also would have married a simple first cousin)
 
Ferdinand the Goodish? He wasn't supposed to have offspring anyway. His wife was already 28 (at that time, this counted as "too old for marriage") and was more like a glorified nurse for him.
 
Pitcairn shows that rather small human populations are viable, at least for a while.
In the absence of new mutations, diseases, and other environmental factors, inbreeding is pretty much only bad if you and your partner both have the same recessive deleterious alleles. If by luck of the genetic lottery your founding population has relatively few seriously negative alleles, subsequent offspring can do fairly well.
 
Okay can we please just get limits between Habsburgs (any BEFORE and INCLUDING Maria Theresia) and Habsburg-Lorraine (anyone AFTER her). I was under the impression this is concerning the original Habsburgs (possibly primarily the Spanish branch) not Habsburg-Lorraines.

Because when @Landmass Wave spoke about Emperor Francis and Maria Theresia I understood it as François Étienne of Lorraine and the Archduchess of Austria (an actual Habsburg) not Franz II (a Habsburg-Lorraine). Likewise, the Ferdinand IV @isabella is referring to, @Max Sinister is not Gudinand (the epileptic Ferdinand I, likewise a member of the Habsburg-Lorraine family) but the older brother of Leopold I (a genuine dyed in the wool Habsburg (on both sides)).

Apologies for being seemingly pedantic.
 
Okay can we please just get limits between Habsburgs (any BEFORE and INCLUDING Maria Theresia) and Habsburg-Lorraine (anyone AFTER her). I was under the impression this is concerning the original Habsburgs (possibly primarily the Spanish branch) not Habsburg-Lorraines.

Because when @Landmass Wave spoke about Emperor Francis and Maria Theresia I understood it as François Étienne of Lorraine and the Archduchess of Austria (an actual Habsburg) not Franz II (a Habsburg-Lorraine). Likewise, the Ferdinand IV @isabella is referring to, @Max Sinister is not Gudinand (the epileptic Ferdinand I, likewise a member of the Habsburg-Lorraine family) but the older brother of Leopold I (a genuine dyed in the wool Habsburg (on both sides)).

Apologies for being seemingly pedantic.
Do not worry Kellan... Thinking to the grandparents instead of the actual couple was an easy mistake (because really who remember who existed two Empresses Maria Theresa? The first in one of the greatest ruler ever while the second one is a little more than a shadow) And really a little more distinction between Habsburg branches would be good...
 
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