Habsburgs break the back of Hungarian Feudalism

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Deleted member 1487

What is after the '48 revolution, Franz Josef decides to punish the nobility of Hungary, the leaders of the revolution, by confiscating their land and ending their privileges? OTL from the years 1890-1900 over 1 million Hungarian peasants left the country for the US because of the repressive system that kept them as serfs and denied them basic political rights.

So, I'd imagine that the Habsburgs break up the large plots of land and sell them off to the smaller farmers, ends the default serfdom that exists, and enacts something like universal suffrage, as getting the masses on the Austrian side gets them away from the self-aggrandizing Hungarian nobility. So now much of what holds the Hungarian development back is gone and the country is able to industrialize on time with the rest of Europe. Not only that, but much of the political compromises that the empire would have to make as a result of the power of the Hungarian nobility, like the dual monarchy, are not as likely to occur. And there will be far less immigration out of Hungary of ethnic Magyars as well as probably less Magyarization of the fearful nobility.

Thought? How does this affect the empire?
 

Philip

Donor
So, I'd imagine that the Habsburgs break up the large plots of land and sell them off to the smaller farmers, ends the default serfdom that exists, and enacts something like universal suffrage, as getting the masses on the Austrian side gets them away from the self-aggrandizing Hungarian nobility.

An interesting idea. I am worried that the the Habsburgs might seek to give the land (or at the least the best parts) to German interests. This could be a problem.
 
What is after the '48 revolution, Franz Josef decides to punish the nobility of Hungary, the leaders of the revolution, by confiscating their land and ending their privileges? OTL from the years 1890-1900 over 1 million Hungarian peasants left the country for the US because of the repressive system that kept them as serfs and denied them basic political rights.

So, I'd imagine that the Habsburgs break up the large plots of land and sell them off to the smaller farmers, ends the default serfdom that exists, and enacts something like universal suffrage, as getting the masses on the Austrian side gets them away from the self-aggrandizing Hungarian nobility. So now much of what holds the Hungarian development back is gone and the country is able to industrialize on time with the rest of Europe. Not only that, but much of the political compromises that the empire would have to make as a result of the power of the Hungarian nobility, like the dual monarchy, are not as likely to occur. And there will be far less immigration out of Hungary of ethnic Magyars as well as probably less Magyarization of the fearful nobility.

Thought? How does this affect the empire?

I don't agree with your premises. If the Austrians had destroyed the Hungarian nobility (which was a huge percentage of the population, BTW), what would have replaced them? Most likely German nobility, which wouldn't have really helped. If not that, then you might very well have ended up with a Serbian or Bulgarian model of a peasant state which declined economically and failed to industrialize.

Emigration wasn't because of a repressive system, it was just a general European trend, and non-Magyars were much more likely to leave than Hungarians. Magyarization was a response to Germanization, and wasn't really very pervasive or effective - most Magyarization happened "naturally", as people migrated from outlying areas to Hungarian cities and then assimilated.

Hungary's economic development was fairly impressive in the later part of the 19th c - a total upheaval and destruction of the nobility as you suggest would have had enormous and revolutionary consequences, and left an enormous well of hostility for the Hapsburgs. If it had been viewed as possible or desirable at the time, it probably would have happened.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't agree with your premises. If the Austrians had destroyed the Hungarian nobility (which was a huge percentage of the population, BTW), what would have replaced them? Most likely German nobility, which wouldn't have really helped. If not that, then you might very well have ended up with a Serbian or Bulgarian model of a peasant state which declined economically and failed to industrialize.

Emigration wasn't because of a repressive system, it was just a general European trend, and non-Magyars were much more likely to leave than Hungarians. Magyarization was a response to Germanization, and wasn't really very pervasive or effective - most Magyarization happened "naturally", as people migrated from outlying areas to Hungarian cities and then assimilated.

Hungary's economic development was fairly impressive in the later part of the 19th c - a total upheaval and destruction of the nobility as you suggest would have had enormous and revolutionary consequences, and left an enormous well of hostility for the Hapsburgs. If it had been viewed as possible or desirable at the time, it probably would have happened.

From what I have read about the conditions in late 19th and early 20th century Hungary, the mass immigration was greater in Hungary than any where else in the empire because of the especially limited options both economically and politically that the average Hungarian farmer had in his own country. 80% of the country was owned by only 20 families, like the Esterhazy's. I guess I should refine my premise-basically it is the top nobility that will have their land confiscated (I don't know the percentage of nobility in the country, but I imagine that the bulk would be the lower nobility). Noble privileges that ensured the feudal state should be eliminated and some where closer to universal suffrage should be enacted for the Hungarian parliament, as only about 15-20% of the population was allowed to vote. Total destruction of the nobility could not happen in Autocratic Austria, nor could complete suffrage, but something like the system in Austria or Czechia could work and would eliminate alot of the resistance to the Habsburgs if they are viewed as the ones giving liberty to the serfs in Hungary.

Hungary was not a particularly industrialized state by 1914. They had only begun to industrialize after 1860 and were quite slow in the process until the 1880's-90's. It had advanced quickly by percentage at that point, only because it had been held back for so long. Even then 4-5% of nothing isn't really that much overall. The book "the industrial revolution in national context" paints a very different picture than what you laid out above. Essentially the backward and feudal system still primarily agriculture based on a latifunda system was desired by the upper echelons of Hungarian society, as they were able to leverage their influence in the empire to dominate the grain markets and garner massive profits. This restrained economic development and kept the majority of the population poor, as foreigners, primarily Germans, were brought in for technical expertise or arrived as entrepeneurs, as the middle class did not exist to fill these roles.

Basically I am proposing a change, though radical, that would destroy the feudal structure, eliminate the power of the staunchest opponents of the Habsburgs, and allow Hungary to develop on similar lines to the other parts of the empire. There was a lot of potential there. Much of the immigration from the Germans could have been prevented or at least toned down in not for the talent vacuum that existed only because of the policies of the wealthiest families that dominated the country.
 

Giladis

Banned
During the 1848 revolution in Hungary, for a very short period of time ban Jelačić was given full authority by the emperor, so it is a possibility that he made a decree in which he abolishes serfdom just as the Croatian Sabor did a few months earlier.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
If the Habsburg succed in breaking the Hungarians back, the effect would be manyfold, primary it would increase the industrialisation of Hungary, and integrate Galicia better into the Empire of course these effect will first be feldt in 1870-80 to late to effect the German Unification. Demographic, the Magyarsation was a enourmous succes, it succed in placing a large Magyar minority in Banat and Bačka, where it had been low to non existing before, the large parts of the German minorities in Southen and Westen Hungary was assimilated and the Slovak enclaves was also disappearing, while both the linguistic borders to the Slovaks and Romanians was moving in favour of the Magyars. If the Habsburg succed Banat and Bačka would have ended up with a small German majority, the German enclaves in south (primary the Donauswaben) and to lesser extent west Hungary (primary a bigger Burgenland) would have grown slowly into a continues territorium, both the Romanians and Slovaks Sprachraum would have been bigger and Slovakas enclaves would have survived in easten Hungary. My guess is that instead of 50 precent speaking Hungarian in Hungary in 1910 it would as low as 35% with 10% more German and the rest split mostly between Romanians and Slovaks.
 
Magyarization was a response to Germanization, and wasn't really very pervasive or effective - most Magyarization happened "naturally", as people migrated from outlying areas to Hungarian cities and then assimilated.

Day
What, minority languages were not forbidden, members of minorities' intelligentsia were not arbitrarily jailed and harassed? Magyarization was without a doubt a national policy.

EDIT: Not that I can tell if it was objectively worse than other countries national policies vis-á-vis minorities.
 
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