Habsburg Spain after War of Succession...

maverick

Banned
Simple enough WI...What if Charles of Austria had become King of Spain instead of Philip of Anjou?

Well, we would need another man to take over the Holy Roman Empire and a treaty assuring that Austria and Spain cannot be ruled by a single monarch...

But this could be done and if it could have, what would have happened during the course of the 18th century?

Spain can't be allied to Britain but they can't be allied to France, since there are no family ties between the royal houses of Spain and France...what would happen to geopolitics in Europe with this sort of Spain? a continuation of the 17th century?

Then there's the issue with Charles' issue...that is Maria Theresa of Austria, who would become Queen of Spain ITTL...or would she? would there be another war of the Spanish Succession over her taking over the reins of power in 1740 like it happened with Austria IOTL? there's no salic law in Spain, since it was brought by the House of Bourbon...but what would happen with her reign in any case?
 
Simple enough WI...What if Charles of Austria had become King of Spain instead of Philip of Anjou?

Well, we would need another man to take over the Holy Roman Empire and a treaty assuring that Austria and Spain cannot be ruled by a single monarch...

But this could be done and if it could have, what would have happened during the course of the 18th century?

Spain can't be allied to Britain but they can't be allied to France, since there are no family ties between the royal houses of Spain and France...what would happen to geopolitics in Europe with this sort of Spain? a continuation of the 17th century?

Then there's the issue with Charles' issue...that is Maria Theresa of Austria, who would become Queen of Spain ITTL...

Well, I think there might be a simple PoD - let's Josef I avoid smallpox, and thus not die at age 33 in 1711. If Charles still dies in 1740, but Josef, say, lives to ages 64 and dies in 1742, Charles will never become HRE.

The sucession is Spain would be one question (Maria Teresia wasn't born before 1717, that's well after the PoD, so Charles might as well have a living son - if he doesn't, a Spanish pragmatic sucession is a real possibility.)

More complicated would be the sucession in Austria and the HRE. OTL, Josefs daughters married the electors of Saxony and Bavaria. But several years after their fathers death - so he might pick someone else if he lives. It might further not be impossible that Josef would still father a son, although his wife was 5 years his senior, and lived to 1742, so he is unlikely to become a widower.
If neither Josef nor Charles have living sones, and Josef survives his brother, it seems fairly likely that Charles daughters would inherit in Spain, and Josefs daughters in Austria, Bohemia, Hungary and the HRE.
IF, and that's a big if - they mary their OTL partners, and have the same kids, we might see the Union of Austria, Bavaria and the HRE on one side and of Poland, Saxony, Bohemia and Hungary on the other - or the split might be different, or - with the exception of Bavaria - everything might be united under the Saxon royal family from 1763 onwards....

And of course, this would greatly change the European alliances in much of the 18th century, and have much effect on the wider world (aka North America, India, but may be even more...).

So this could be the starting point of a great TL.

Cheers
Good Habit
 
Well, I think there might be a simple PoD - let's Josef I avoid smallpox, and thus not die at age 33 in 1711. If Charles still dies in 1740, but Josef, say, lives to ages 64 and dies in 1742, Charles will never become HRE.

The sucession is Spain would be one question (Maria Teresia wasn't born before 1717, that's well after the PoD, so Charles might as well have a living son - if he doesn't, a Spanish pragmatic sucession is a real possibility.)

More complicated would be the sucession in Austria and the HRE. OTL, Josefs daughters married the electors of Saxony and Bavaria. But several years after their fathers death - so he might pick someone else if he lives. It might further not be impossible that Josef would still father a son, although his wife was 5 years his senior, and lived to 1742, so he is unlikely to become a widower.
If neither Josef nor Charles have living sones, and Josef survives his brother, it seems fairly likely that Charles daughters would inherit in Spain, and Josefs daughters in Austria, Bohemia, Hungary and the HRE.
IF, and that's a big if - they mary their OTL partners, and have the same kids, we might see the Union of Austria, Bavaria and the HRE on one side and of Poland, Saxony, Bohemia and Hungary on the other - or the split might be different, or - with the exception of Bavaria - everything might be united under the Saxon royal family from 1763 onwards....

And of course, this would greatly change the European alliances in much of the 18th century, and have much effect on the wider world (aka North America, India, but may be even more...).

So this could be the starting point of a great TL.

Cheers
Good Habit

Okay I can see why you are linking Bohemia and Hungary, but since we are positing a longer reign for Joseph and Charles on the throne in Spain Joseph should be able to decide how his inheritance would be split. the last Crown (St. Stephan) obtained by the Hapsburgs should probably go to the Junior daughter, with Austria and Bohemia to the elder. It makes for a more equitable distribution, The size is fairly equal, thought the latter is probably wealthier than the former, Marie Josephe is the senior matriarchal line.

In all probablility she will marry either the elector of Saxony or Bavaria.

Maria Amalia on the other hand will probably marry someone else...a Polish or Hungarian Noble perhaps...is there any of any standing that could measure up. Joseph after all would be looking to ensure the integrity of that domain as well. Is there another Cousin that could be safely ensconced there that won't probe a troublesome rival for Marie Josephe's husband, whoever that should prove to be.

And yes he could still father a son it is not impossible. In 1710 his wife is only 37, but it will prove increasingly less likely beyond what 1715...and then there is survivability of mother and child to consider.


In any case a Saxon marriage for the Elder line would unite a very formidable force for Frederick of Prussia to contend with. With Saxony Austria and Bohemia ( incl. Silesia obviously at this point) would the new Saxon dynasty rule from Vienna or Dresden...or choose perhaps to make a new seat of his domains in Prague. Poland would probably remain in purely personal Union, butI would see the German Czech domains increasing fused together into a coherent hole.

Maria Theresa will no doubt obtain the Crown of Spain with no opposition as the focus will no doubt largely be on the German Hapsburg Domains..and there is no Salic Law as yet. Female inheritance is not without precedent. Whether she marries Francis of Lorraine though is doubtful. More likely to be Joseph de Braganza.

lets se that makes

Hapsburg-Wettin for the core German held lands or perhaps Hapsburg-Wittelsbach as the former would likely create a colossus in the centre of Europe giving most pause with regard to the Balance of power.... Hapsburg-Braganza perhaps for Hispania or Iberia.. and Hapsburg for Hungary unless there is a suitable candidate for Maria-Amalia making it Hapsburg something in Hungary as well. Who are Austria's other German Catholic allies at this point again...or do we go to Italy perhaps for her consort Francis III d'Este of Modena would seem to be the only option there or perhpas Charles Emanuel of the Savoyards. I'm just not sure where they fit at this point in time as they shift around when appropriate.
 
Hapsburg-Liechtenstein Hungary...

...Maria Amalia to Joseph John or Joseph Wencelas. Thats about as uncontentious a contender as we can get for whoever Marie Josephe is married to. Have them trade the entire principality for suitable lands within Hungary as a personal desmense for the Liechtenstein clan. Mind you Hungary in personal union with Liechtenstein probably works too. Though they could probably be split at some point down the road.
 
Habsburg-Rakoczy for Hungary

If Joseph lives is also doable for Hungary and probably solves a whole lot of problems in the short term anyway. I'm just not sure what age Francis II's sons are going to be relative to Maria-Amalia.
 
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Well, I think there might be a simple PoD - let's Josef I avoid smallpox, and thus not die at age 33 in 1711
Are whe talking about the Electoral Prince Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria,
Wiki has him dieing in 1699.
As King Charles II of Spain had been both mentally and physically infirm from a very young age, it was clear that he could not produce an heir. Thus, the issue of the inheritance of the Spanish kingdoms — which included not only Spain, but also dominions in Italy, the Low Countries, and the Americas — became quite contentious. Two dynasties claimed the Spanish throne: the French Bourbons and the Austrian Habsburgs; both royal families were closely related to the late King of Spain.


The most direct and legitimate successor would have been Louis, le Grand Dauphin, the only legitimate son of King Louis XIV of France and Spanish princess Maria Theresa, herself King Charles II's elder half-sister. In addition, Louis XIV was a first cousin of his wife Maria Theresa and of King Charles II as his mother was Spanish princess Anne of Austria, the sister of King Philip IV, Charles II's father. The Dauphin, being next in the French line of succession as well, was a problematic choice: had he inherited both the French and the Spanish realms, he would have control of a vast empire that would have threatened the European balance of power. Furthermore, both Anne and Maria Theresa had renounced their rights to the Spanish succession upon their marriages. In the latter case, however, the renunciation was widely seen as invalid, since it had been predicated upon Spain's payment of the Infanta's dowry, which was never paid.
Charles II was the last Habsburg King of Spain. After his death, the War of the Spanish Succession broke out as France and Austria vied for the Spanish Empire.
Charles II was the last Habsburg King of Spain. After his death, the War of the Spanish Succession broke out as France and Austria vied for the Spanish Empire.

The alternative candidate was the Holy Roman Emperor, Leopold I, of the Austrian Habsburg dynasty. He was a first cousin of the King of Spain, his mother having been another sister of Philip IV; moreover, Charles II's father, Philip IV, had given the succession to the Austrian line in his will. This candidate, too, posed formidable problems, for Leopold's success would have reunited the powerful Spanish-Austrian Habsburg empire of the sixteenth century. In 1668, only three years after Charles II had ascended, the then-childless Leopold had agreed to the partition of the Spanish territories between the Bourbons and the Habsburgs, even though Philip IV's will entitled him to the entire inheritance. In 1689, however, when William III of England required the Emperor's aid in the War of the Grand Alliance against France, he promised to support the Emperor's claim to the undivided Spanish empire.

A new candidate for the Spanish throne, the Electoral Prince Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria, had been born in 1692. Joseph Ferdinand was Leopold I's grandson, but in the female line, so he belonged not to the Habsburg but to the Wittelsbach dynasty. His mother, Maria Antonia, had been Leopold's daughter by his first marriage, to Philip IV of Spain's younger daughter Margaret Theresa. As Joseph Ferdinand was neither a Bourbon nor a Habsburg, the likelihood of Spain merging with either France or Austria remained low. Although Leopold and Louis were both willing to defer their claims to a junior line of the family — Leopold to his younger son, the Archduke Charles, and Louis to the Dauphin's younger son, the duc d'Anjou — the Bavarian prince remained a far less threatening candidate. Accordingly, he soon became the preferred choice of England and the Netherlands. Joseph Ferdinand, moreover, would have been the lawful heir to the Spanish throne under Philip IV's will.

As the War of the Grand Alliance came to a close in 1697, the issue of the Spanish succession was becoming critical. England and France, exhausted by the conflict, agreed to the First Partition Treaty, which named Joseph Ferdinand heir to the Spanish throne, but divided Spanish territory in Italy and the Low Countries between France and Austria. This decision was taken without consulting the Spanish, who vehemently objected to the dismemberment of their empire. Thus, when the Partition Treaty became known in 1698, Charles II of Spain agreed to name the Bavarian Prince his heir, but assigned to him the whole Spanish Empire, not just the parts England and France had chosen.

The young Bavarian prince abruptly died of smallpox in 1699, reopening the issue of the Spanish succession. England and France soon ratified the Second Partition Treaty, assigning the Spanish throne to the Archduke Charles. The Italian territories would go to France, while the Archduke would receive the remainder of the Spanish empire. The Austrians, who were not party to the treaty, were displeased, for they openly vied for the whole of Spain, and it was the Italian territories in which they were most interested: richer, closer, and more governable. In Spain, distaste for the treaty was even greater; the courtiers were unified in opposing partition, but were divided on whether the throne should go to a Habsburg or a Bourbon. The pro-French statesmen, however, were in the majority, and in October 1700, Charles II agreed to bequeath all of his territory to the Dauphin's second son, the duc d'Anjou. Charles took steps to prevent the union of France and Spain; should Anjou have inherited the French throne, Spain would have gone to his younger brother, the duc de Berri. After Anjou and his brother, the Archduke Charles was to have been next in the line of succession.
 
Are whe talking about the Electoral Prince Joseph Ferdinand of Bavaria,
Wiki has him dieing in 1699.

Actually he is refering to Joseph, son of Leopold of Austria and brother to the Archduke Charles.

The Assumption being 1) that the Hapsburgs defeat the Sun King in his last great Hurrah...or 2) the partition plan, despite its distaste to the Austrian's is accepted and AD Charles does inherit Spain and War is avoided here. That is going to leave the
France fairly powerful in Italy and Austria with the likely accomplice of Spain would likely try to undo that at the first opportunity. Which is really what happened anyway under Phillip, with Spain regaining much of its position in Italy at the expense of Austria....Except this time around it will Be France on the Defensive not Austria...the Polish succession crisis is not far down the road and of course as noted what will likely be a pragmatic sanction war as Otl if we are dealing with Joseph's daughter's in Austria instead of Maria-Theresa. So probably the same sequence of wars...perhaps.. but perhaps the parthnership is a bit different. Spain would be Anti-French for instance and the Hapsburg domains will probably be two...Austria and Hungary.

honestly making Marie Josephe the heir to Austria/Bohemia and still marrying her to the heir of Saxony is got to give the French nightmares, especially with a Pro-Austrian government in Madrid as well.

France and Austria will almost certainly support opposing candidates during the Polish succession..with France probably supporting the Russian candidate instead to oppose the Hapsburg Hegemony in Central Europe. Then again perhaps the Saxons do not make another bid for the Polish throne, as gaining Austria/Bohemia fits better in terms of making them the ruling dynasty in the HRE any way...and most definitely a power to be reckoned with..Habsburg-Wettin ... Not nearly as hard to pronounce as Habsburg-Lotharingen. Of course if she is married instead to the elector of Bavaria then the Saxons will probably be a candidate in Poland-Lithuania. Assuming though that they are not...does Stanislaus regain his throne, and iwill it be with French or Austrian backing. I can't at the moment remember who the other Candidates were.

The Polish succession could be a much larger affair than Otl and where the maritime powers in the Netherlands and Britain fit will be key. they are traditional allies of Austria but they will also be looking at the balance of power as well. and of course then there are the Turks...traditional allies of France in this period but also periodically at odds with the Tsar as well.
 
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I know the post was Hapsburg after the War of Succession... but what if
Spain simply paid Maria Theresa's dowry some how.

Leopold was willing to discuss partition as early as 1668. Lets say he's a little more stubborn and conciliatory at the same time. He will discuss partition only if the French will discuss settling the matter of the dowry with the Spanish on terms that are non-fiduciary...or perhaps a lesser monetary sum as well as further territorial concessions to France ( I am thinking they want Milan but get say Trinidad instead in the Caribbean along with a lesser sum of money, probably financed by the Austrian branch if needed or their German allies inthe HRE). He will in turn then forgoe his inheritance rights to the Spanish Empire, aws is his right under Phillip's will in favour of a junior member of his line should they occur so that the two Hapsburg Empire's are not again fully united under a single ruler.

In which case French claims would be voided on Charles death, and in a fit of Pique, Charles angered by English/French partition plans assigns the entire inheritance to The Archduke Charles instead of Phillip. Mind you whether there would be any partition plans is open to debate, and Louis might not even go to war in this case.

War should it occur would likely only involve France and the Hapsburg Empire unless Louis is really stupid, and gets the Dutch and English involved. Have Leopold's son Joseph not get Small pox and your set...

Charles starts out as the de facto and de jure King of Spain and Spain is ally of Austria. If fortune goes as OTL, then the War will finish in the Imperial favour earlier than OTL once fortune starts to go south for France and Louis offers his inumerable concessions for peace. Since Charles is already in place in Spain...there is no Phillip to be evicted. France will gain something, probably Alsace in Europe, The Spanish Empire remains intact. Though if France gains Alsace...then the HRE probably gets something in return...Spanish Netherlands I expect under Austrian auspices. Spain will need compensation somewhere probably as well. Hmm Trinidad returned along with French Tobago (assume its been occupied by them in the interim). As a side effect...hmm, no British Gibralter or Minorca either it seems.

Hapsburg Spain. and a complicated succession in Austria down the road, no Salic law in Spain. The War ends in say 1706 to 8 instead just when things get ugly in the Northern War for Sweden.
 
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