Habsburg/Catholic Denmark results in New Netherland survives?

Valdemar II

Banned
Sometime ago we discussed Christian II of Denmark winning and keeping Denmark and Norway (maybe reconquer Sweden), Christian II was a ally and dependent of the Habsburg and would therefor in all likelyhood not convert to Catholism. Beside that he only produced daughter, so a marriage back into the Habsburg family could easily happen.

In OTL Netherland was dependent on raw materials from the Baltic (mostly timber and grain), but Denmark to some extent controlled the baltic trade by being able to close the Baltic Sea off from external trade.

So if we end up with a Habsburg Denmark (likely the Austrian branch), they would likely cut it off from Dutch trade, while it won't kill the revolution, in long term it means that Netherlands needs another source of timber, and which would increase the value of New Netherland, giving them a better reason to settled and defend the new territories.

Weird idea, or interesting analyse?
 
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Sometime ago we discussed Christian II of Denmark winning and keeping Denmark and Norway (maybe reconquer Sweden), Christian II was a ally and dependent of the Habsburg and would therefor in all likelyhood not convert to Catholism. Beside that he only produced daughter, so a marriage back into the Habsburg family could easily happen.

In OTL Netherland was dependent on raw materials from the Baltic (mostly timber and grain), but Denmark to some extent controlled the baltic trade by being able to close the Baltic Sea off from external trade.

So if we end up with a Habsburg Denmark (likely the Austrian branch), they would likely cut it off from Dutch trade, while it won't kill the revolution, in long term it means that Netherlands needs another source of timber, and which would increase the value of New Netherland, giving them a better reason to settled and defend the new territories.

Weird idea, or interesting analyse?
*drools*

Habsburg Denmark... Specifically which Habsburg male because thats important since in all likelihood this would result in Denmark begin held in personal union with Austria, Bohemia, and Hungary.
 
Didn't Christian have a son who died while they were in exile (Hans I believe)? Maybe ITTL he doesn't die, if the causes can be butterflied.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Didn't Christian have a son who died while they were in exile (Hans I believe)? Maybe ITTL he doesn't die, if the causes can be butterflied.

Yes plus I also found that he had three stillborn sons. The problem is that there's little information about Hans beside that he was born in 1518 and died in 1532.
 
*drools*

Habsburg Denmark... Specifically which Habsburg male because thats important since in all likelihood this would result in Denmark begin held in personal union with Austria, Bohemia, and Hungary.


I was wondering about the possibilities, and came up with this solution:

Firstly, Christian II staying as king of Denmark makes his wife Isabella of Habsburg not die from an illness she got during their exile in 1526. While it's good for her, it means the king isn't free to remarry, and so when his only son Hans die (I'm assuming his death isn't butterflied) in 1532 his daughter Christina (born in 1522) becomes his heir.

From 1532 Christian has the difficult decision of choosing a husband powerful enough to secure Christina's throne, but also Catholic, in order to keep Habsburg's support. That's a hard business, since all the nearby states in Northern Germany had already converted to Protestantism. The solution would be a Habsburg, but who? Ferdinand is already married, and his only (by then) two sons were too young (Maximilian was born in 1527, and Ferdinand in 1529, Charles would only be born in 1540). So, at first negotiations are made to marry Christina with the younger Maximilian when they come of age.

However, in 1539 a death changes it completely. Isabella of Portugal dies (as IOTL) and now the Emperor Charles V himself is free to be married. He would be a solution that pleases Christian more than Maximilian, and so an arrangement is made. In 1540 Christina marries Charles V, and so become Empress and queen of Spain. The following year she gives birth to a male baby, the future Charles I of Denmark.

Now, a second male son of Charles V changes the succession in the HRE. Despite his desires to make Philip II his successor in HRE too, he wasn't accepted as it became clear from his example that being king of distant Spain and Emperor at the same time didn't work. But Denmark is much nearer to the German lands, and so wouln't be a problem so great. Sorry Ferdinand, be happy with Hungary and Bohemia, but now the next Emperor won't be the Emperor's brother, but his second son, the heir of Denmark.

In order to improve his second son's conditions in the Empire, Charles V could ensure that he also receives the Burgundian inheritance, while Philip II keeps the Spanish Empire. Netherlands could still rebell against their Catholic Danish king, but as Denmark didn't have the same amount of resources as Spain their rebellion gets even more successful (maybe Southern Netherlands now stay Calvinist?). However, it also completely close their markets in the Baltic, and so they need to invest in colonies in North America in order to get their timber. With a greater Netherlands less affected by the war (as Denmark probably wouldn't fight 80 years to reconquer it) the Dutch have more resources and people to use in their colonies and ensure their possessions.

What do you think about this scenario? Would it be plausible?
 
At the beginning of the 1500s Netherlands fishing boosted and the timbers had to be had from somewhere.
Christian II had good relations with the Netherlands but severing these say post 1531 if Christian is given the dowry by the Emperor and showing to be more determined than OTL this source may dry out.
That could make for the Netherlands to look elsewhere for shipbuilding timbers. (Effect on the British Kingdom if they are locked out too???)

This would of course butterfly away the reformation in Scandinavia as Christian would have to rely on the nobility to secure his base as opposed to his relying on commoners and merchants during his late reign. (even if the nobility turned to the to be Lutheran Duke Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp to get rid of Christian II)

The immediate influence on Denmark would be the continuation of rich fishing on the west coast of Jutland due to lent days necessiating this.
This would of course further the conflict of merchants/shipowners and nobility as both had an interest in this.

As the nobility was the major cattle breeders (that insured their survival post reformation!) they needed workers but these wanted freedom which was available on the Kings beaches where the fishing villages were situated - making them the Kings direct subjects!

Actually the continuation of catholicism might make for a, perhaps short-lived, more diverse society of Denmark which could make for some interesting butterflies.

A Danish Emperor would be interesting especially as he would balance in his own country between power hungry nobility that already had deposed one King and commoners wanting personal freedom supporting the King in return.
In this case this Emperor probably wouldn't fight the Dutch!:D
Not 80 years though, as it would most probably back-fire fuelling both sides of the Danish powerstruggle!:D:D:D
 
A Danish Emperor would be interesting especially as he would balance in his own country between power hungry nobility that already had deposed one King and commoners wanting personal freedom supporting the King in return.
In this case this Emperor probably wouldn't fight the Dutch!:D
Not 80 years though, as it would most probably back-fire fuelling both sides of the Danish powerstruggle!:D:D:D

But would him just let them become Calvinist? After all, he is a Habsburg, and would push for Counter-Reformation.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
But would him just let them become Calvinist? After all, he is a Habsburg, and would push for Counter-Reformation.

Quite likely he would, but he would be a lot more diplomatic about it, unlike Philip II he would have to worry about Protestant sentiment in his main territories, plus he had to deal somewhat diplomatic with the Protestant German princes as Emperor, beside there's also the fact that he would likely spend most of his time and life in Netherlands, which would make sensible to the mood of the area.

While I haven't thought of a Danish-Netherlandic Emperor, now it has been mentioned I think it would be much more stable union than Spain-Netherland, because of shared interests and a Emperor which had to be more careful in his dealing with Protestants.

Of course this seem like a match made in heaven, the Austrian branch can focus on their struggle with the Ottomans, the Netherlandic branch can fous on the Empire, while the Spanish Branch can focus on the Mediterranean Sea, with a Habsburg coaliation dealing with the French and English. The Swedish would likely be overrun by Denmark while Christian is still alive (with access to the Habsburg gold his position is a lot better). With Sweden in Catholic hands, Livonia, Estonia and Courland will likely get message and stay Catholic too.

P.S. Welcome back Arctic Warrior.
 
While I haven't thought of a Danish-Netherlandic Emperor, now it has been mentioned I think it would be much more stable union than Spain-Netherland, because of shared interests and a Emperor which had to be more careful in his dealing with Protestants.

With a Danish Emperor, could we see some kind of integration of Denmark into the HRE? I think it would be interesting to see the Emperor making his residence in some Northern German city nearer to Denmark, in Schleswig or Holstein.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
With a Danish Emperor, could we see some kind of integration of Denmark into the HRE? I think it would be interesting to see the Emperor making his residence in some Northern German city nearer to Denmark, in Schleswig or Holstein.

I doubt it, like Hungary it make more sense to keep it outside, to keep it fully in his authority as Danish king, most likely the Emperor would set up residence in Antwerp, beside Schleswig was not part of Germany. Beside that the "cities" of Schleswig-Holstein was little more than glorified villages at the time (Flensburg and Schlesvig town which was the two biggest towns in royal territorium at the time has less than 5 000 inhabitants), and half of Schleswig-Holstein is in the descendants of Frederik I hands (including Kiel) or part of Pinneberg (including Altona).
 
Quite likely he would, but he would be a lot more diplomatic about it, unlike Philip II he would have to worry about Protestant sentiment in his main territories, plus he had to deal somewhat diplomatic with the Protestant German princes as Emperor, beside there's also the fact that he would likely spend most of his time and life in Netherlands, which would make sensible to the mood of the area.

While I haven't thought of a Danish-Netherlandic Emperor, now it has been mentioned I think it would be much more stable union than Spain-Netherland, because of shared interests and a Emperor which had to be more careful in his dealing with Protestants.

P.S. Welcome back Arctic Warrior.

I'm quite certain that this would be advisable but then one never knows how things would play out; a lot depends on the character of the man... ;)

But the events in Denmark/Kalmar Union 1521-31 should be a guideline to the man.

About Denmark being dragged into the HRE - perhaps but more likely as the case in Austria that the other crowns would be ruled by the Emperor as his personal lands outside the HRE; kings and emperors it seems to me were always eager to enlarge their personal demesne so as to keep it out of reach of their magnates!
The important part would be to keep Norway and Denmark together so as to ensure the succession in Denmark - but this really shouldn't be a problem.

Hi Valdemar - thanks! :)
 
But would him just let them become Calvinist? After all, he is a Habsburg, and would push for Counter-Reformation.

Certainly, but the Danish/Kalmar Union experiences should tell him something - but as stated in the previous post a lot depend upon the man!
 
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