Hélène of Orléans, Empress of Russia

Emperor of Panama

What if Nicholas II had married Hélène of Orléans? , What changes would an empress raised by the French Liberals bring to Russia? Will it help the Romanovs not have hemophilia carriers for the future? And another thing, As the Emperor Alexander III and Empress Maria Fedorovna would achieve this marriage. Under a treaty? Would Elena accept to change her Catholic religion for Russian Orthodoxy? or more simple: Alix de Hesse-Darmstadt would marry Alberto Víctor de Clarence in 1890? Forcing the Zarevich to choose the other path as he himself wrote in his diary. :hushedface:
 

Kaze

Banned
She had a head on her shoulders, she was well liked by the people. According to all the diaries at the time and the previous Tsar's private writings, he did like her and she was a good influence on Nicholas. He liked her so much that he allowed her to marry blood royal - Nicholas' cousin.
 

Emperor Constantine

Neither Heléné nor Nicholas were at all interested in the marriage. Plus it's questionable on whether or not Héléne would be allowed to convert considering her father refused her permission to marry Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and future King of the United Kingdom. And if she can't/won't convert the marriage is DOA: Russia isn't going to accept a Catholic Empress.
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Emperor Constantine said:
Neither Heléné nor Nicholas were at all interested in the marriage. Plus it's questionable on whether or not Héléne would be allowed to convert considering her father refused her permission to marry Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and future King of the United Kingdom. And if she can't/won't convert the marriage is DOA: Russia isn't going to accept a Catholic Empress.
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Her dad really was something wasn't he? I mean, you've got possibilities for your daughters to become queen of England, empress of Russia, queen of the Belgians etc. and you refuse them all because "reasons". You force your eldest son into a marriage he hates (admittedly he married his Austrian wife in opposition to his parents - who wanted him to marry the OTL duchesse de Magenta - and that wasn't a match made in heaven either)... Can't we just kill off the Comte de Paris that his kids have some chance of matrimonial happiness?

Although Hélène had an interesting life as duchess of Aosta. There's the story of how, after she separated from her husband, he [the duke of Aosta] lived with his mistress she with her lover, and one night at a hotel, the duke and duchess ended up in neighboring rooms with their respective lovers. The duke was gallant enough to send a bouquet of roses up to his wife, accompanied by a bottle of her favorite champagne and something else, with a card that said "I'm glad you enjoyed yourself last night, darling". And no, it wasn't that he meant to send it to his mistress instead. Well, it might be true what they say, royalty's not like the rest of us...
 

Tyler96

JonasResende said:
I wonder if Nicky woùldn't refuse to wed Hélène, join a monastery (I think he threatened to do so OTL), and we get Emperor George instead.
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Isn't George's health already going downhill by this point (~1890)? Considering his illness forced him to relocate to Georgia IOTL having him be Tsar would be difficult.

Might it also be possible for Nicholas to be reluctant to run off and pass the buck to his sick brother?
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Tyler96 said:
Isn't George's health already going downhill by this point (~1890)? Considering his illness forced him to relocate to Georgia IOTL having him be Tsar would be difficult.

Might it also be possible for Nicholas to be reluctant to run off and pass the buck to his sick brother?
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Was only after their world tour that Georgie was sick. And Nicky had no issue with his sick brother standing as heir presumptive to the throne while Alix only gave girls, so I'd say Nicky wouldn't feel a fig for whether his brother's health can stand it or not.
 

Emperor Constantine

JonasResende said:
Her dad really was something wasn't he? I mean, you've got possibilities for your daughters to become queen of England, empress of Russia, queen of the Belgians etc. and you refuse them all because "reasons". You force your eldest son into a marriage he hates (admittedly he married his Austrian wife in opposition to his parents - who wanted him to marry the OTL duchesse de Magenta - and that wasn't a match made in heaven either)... Can't we just kill off the Comte de Paris that his kids have some chance of matrimonial happiness?
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You have to remember the position the Orléans now found themselves in. With the death of the Comte de Chambord the vast majority of the Legitimsts had recognized the Comte de Paris as the legitimate heir to the throne. Effectively Philippe shifted himself and the Orléanists from being a moderate liberal party to a conservative, nearly reactionary movement. The idea that His Most Christian Majesty's daughter would convert to heresy was anathema to his supporters and would have likely caused more damage to his prospects within France as it would help abroad. Also, I don't think Philippe VIII's match had anything to do with purposefully pissing off his parents considering his father died in 1894 and he didn't marry until 1896.
 

Aphrodite

To the OP: Assuming this marriage takes place, the effects are likely to be minimal. Contrary to popular belief, Alexandra played little role in public affairs and rarely discussed politics with her husband until the war. If Nicholas has a healthy heir born earlier in the reign, that could have some consequences. He was determined to keep his powers in tact for his son. He might have been more ruthless in 1905 for example. This is just pure speculation for its also possible that Helen never produces an heir

For the historic record: The whole linking of Helen and Nicholas comes from a single passage in Nicholas' diary. An upcoming wedding was being discussed and the Empress Marie dropped hints about Nicholas' love life. She made some suggestions about Helen, which would be natural- she was one of the few women of proper rank and age. She never presses the issue any further. Later, when Nicholas tells her his feelings towards Alix, her response is 'well, propose to her"
 
JonasResende

JonasResende

Emperor Constantine said:
Also, I don't think Philippe VIII's match had anything to do with purposefully pissing off his parents considering his father died in 1894 and he didn't marry until 1896.
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Probably was, even if somewhat belated.

Prince Philippe of Orléans (son of Philippe Count of Paris & Isabelle of Orléans-Montpensier - brother to the above mentioned Hélène) was officially engaged to his first cousin Marguerite of Orléans-Chartres when both were still very young. But Philippe soon felt trapped (he thought he had been pushed into it by his parents) and broke the engagement. He had a long standing affair with the singer Nelly Melba which scandalised his family and later married Archduchess Marie Dorothée of Austria. Marguerite married Patrice of Mac-Mahon, Duke of Magenta when she was 27.
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JonasResende

JonasResende

Aphrodite said:
To the OP: Assuming this marriage takes place, the effects are likely to be minimal. Contrary to popular belief, Alexandra played little role in public affairs and rarely discussed politics with her husband until the war. If Nicholas has a healthy heir born earlier in the reign, that could have some consequences. He was determined to keep his powers in tact for his son. He might have been more ruthless in 1905 for example. This is just pure speculation for its also possible that Helen never produces an heir
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Alix was shy and a retiring personality - the sort least qualified to be empress of Russia, and as a result, she came off as aloof and distant, which wasn't helped by her constant "illnesses", depression and preferral of a private to court life. Hélène was most likely a far better people-worker than that. I can't think she would've isolated herself away from court. She was also an intrigante/schemer by the sounds of things (in the words of one historian, "she lost two crowns [Britain and Russia] and spent the rest of her life scheming for her husband to get one"). So she might be more politically active than Alix was. Which can be a good or a bad thing. If she influences Nicky in a positive way - good generals, good decisions etc - then great. Alix might not have been politically active (but she was still a powerful voice in her husband's ear, as Rasputin was in hers), but she wasn't without influence or power.

Aphrodite said:
For the historic record: The whole linking of Helen and Nicholas comes from a single passage in Nicholas' diary. An upcoming wedding was being discussed and the Empress Marie dropped hints about Nicholas' love life. She made some suggestions about Helen, which would be natural- she was one of the few women of proper rank and age. She never presses the issue any further. Later, when Nicholas tells her his feelings towards Alix, her response is 'well, propose to her"
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I didn't know that. I was under the impression that Marie Feodorovna was for Hélène because of her [Marie's] anti-German sentiments.
 

dcontreras

Emperor Constantine said:
Neither Heléné nor Nicholas were at all interested in the marriage. Plus it's questionable on whether or not Héléne would be allowed to convert considering her father refused her permission to marry Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and future King of the United Kingdom. And if she can't/won't convert the marriage is DOA: Russia isn't going to accept a Catholic Empress.
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As a sidenote. Ironic this posting as Helene was in love with Albert Victor and was not allowed to marry him. (Queen Victoria was in favor of the match.) But Albert Victor (Eddy to the family,) had shown an earlier interest in marrying Alice of Hesse who became Alexandra and did marry Nicholas II.
 

Aphrodite

JonasResende said:
Alix was shy and a retiring personality - the sort least qualified to be empress of Russia, and as a result, she came off as aloof and distant, which wasn't helped by her constant "illnesses", depression and preferral of a private to court life. Hélène was most likely a far better people-worker than that. I can't think she would've isolated herself away from court. She was also an intrigante/schemer by the sounds of things (in the words of one historian, "she lost two crowns [Britain and Russia] and spent the rest of her life scheming for her husband to get one"). So she might be more politically active than Alix was. Which can be a good or a bad thing. If she influences Nicky in a positive way - good generals, good decisions etc - then great. Alix might not have been politically active (but she was still a powerful voice in her husband's ear, as Rasputin was in hers), but she wasn't without influence or power.



I didn't know that. I was under the impression that Marie Feodorovna was for Hélène because of her [Marie's] anti-German sentiments.
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I doubt that Nicholas would tolerate her interference in state matters, Alix once said that she had raised a political issue with him and he had gotten so upset she would never do it again. Helen would have no fundamental knowledge of Russia or Russian officers. To suggest that she could positively influence either policy or personale decisions is rather doubtful. Parties for the elite aren't going to stop the revolutions

As for Alix, there's no evidence of any opposition in Russia. And why would there have been ? Her sister was married into the family and was promoting with a fervor. Only religion was an obstacle one the family worked together to overcome. Marie sent her a long letter about a Lutheran princess who found happiness in Russia and orthodoxy

Only Victoria opposed the match- writing her daughter "It's not to personality for I like the boy very much but as to country. I fear it will all end very badly."
 

Titania's Rose

Could Alix of Hesse have had a better time in Britain if she'd fallen for Eddy and married him than she did in Russia? She was shy and did prefer to remain at home with her family but the British Royal Family could spin that towards Alexandra being motherly and harken back to the Victorian family ideals.
 

Noblesse Oblige

Personally, I see this scenario a lot, and it is widely agreed that Philippe would not have accepted it. My question is, (since I don't think this question is ever brought up elsewhere) were there anyone else besides Alix of Hesse who would serve a better role as Empress?
 
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