Gustavus Adolphus WIs

If Gustaf II Adolf had survived Lutzen he probably had forged his evangelical union which was one of his goals. he is the only monark in our long history
which has been given the honourific "Den Store" (the great) and that was not only for his prowess in warfare he was also a very gifted administrator
founding several cities, universities and higher courts. His deathday are still honoured to this day, 6th of November Gustaf Adolfs dagen.
 

Susano

Banned
...well then! I think somebody didn't like the Swedish participation in the Thirty Years War.

Its not about "like", that would be subjective. No, it is as I said: The Thirty Years War killed off a third of Germanys population, so at that time 2-3m people. And a large part of that is due to the Swedish army, which was the cruelest, most marauding and most heavily looting army of them all.
 
Its not about "like", that would be subjective. No, it is as I said: The Thirty Years War killed off a third of Germanys population, so at that time 2-3m people. And a large part of that is due to the Swedish army, which was the cruelest, most marauding and most heavily looting army of them all.

It is not like the the Sweedes started the war, and if you don't have Adolphus you don't have such a large amount of death. The war would of gone only two ways if Adolphus had not been in it, and you still don't have Adolphus. One the French come into the war sooner, or the Catholics win. If the French come in sooner, you still have another army which could be just as destructive. Then more then likely the Catholics win, and the death and destruction of Northern Germany is unmatched. it is very possible that you have an inquisition on at least on a small scale.

Two more things, a large part of the 15-20 percent of the people who died, not 1/3 where because of disease which followed the many armies that marched though, and also the level of famine, which also occurs in every war zone. Both of these facts were the main reason so many did die. While the Swedish army many times was harsh to the people, as most mercenary armies are. One could even still argue that , the situation got worse when less men were in charge of the army.
 

Susano

Banned
It is not like the the Sweedes started the war, and if you don't have Adolphus you don't have such a large amount of death. The war would of gone only two ways if Adolphus had not been in it, and you still don't have Adolphus. One the French come into the war sooner, or the Catholics win. If the French come in sooner, you still have another army which could be just as destructive. Then more then likely the Catholics win, and the death and destruction of Northern Germany is unmatched. it is very possible that you have an inquisition on at least on a small scale.
Inquisition? Read upon history, and not Protestant propaganda of the time:rolleyes: In the end, the Protestants and the Protestant states were every bit as bad and intolerant as their Catholic counterparts. Really, from a modern point of view it should make no difference if North Germany became Catholic or Protestant. What does make a difference is a horde of marauding Swedes that caused death on a mass scale to achieve the latter.

Two more things, a large part of the 15-20 percent of the people who died, not 1/3 where because of disease which followed the many armies that marched though, and also the level of famine, which also occurs in every war zone. Both of these facts were the main reason so many did die. While the Swedish army many times was harsh to the people, as most mercenary armies are. One could even still argue that , the situation got worse when less men were in charge of the army.
A third of the people died, in many regions even up to 3/4. Now its true, few people died in direct battles, but the 30 Years War is markant in a special change in warfare: Whereas previously wars run for as long as the kings and princes could pay their troops, now the troops lived off the land. And THAT caused famine and disease, and the Swedish horde was the worst offender in that regard. Not that the Imperials or Spanish or French or troops of League or Union wouldnt have done it, but its no coincidence the mortality rate was highest were the Swedes went through.

The best thing for Germany and for some hundred thousands of people would have been a quick war with a decisive victor, irregardless and irrelevant of who that victor is. So, to kill off Gustav Adolf and then have Sweden be too instable to intervene under his daughter would be a positive PoD.
 
It's been a while since I've read up on the matter, but weren't the worst of the Swedish depredations in Germany in the latter years of the intervention, after the death of Gustavus?
 

Susano

Banned
It's been a while since I've read up on the matter, but weren't the worst of the Swedish depredations in Germany in the latter years of the intervention, after the death of Gustavus?

Eh, that may be, but if theres never a Swedish expedition to begin with that would be even better.
 
The fact the Protestants were as bad as the Catholics doesn't matter, because even with Adolphus, the Protestants don't conquer and force conversion of Catholic lands. If there is no Adolphus, then Catholics do take over Protestant lands. So how bad or not the Protestants are is not even important. The Catholics still use their power to use kill and forcibly convert Northern Germany. The resulting hardship would of been huge.

Next, most modern historians agree that the death rate was only 15-20 percent. The Thirty Year's War by Geoffrey Parker, and Simon Adams does a good job on covering the death rate of the war. Also the worst years of the war occurred after Adophus' death, during the French phase of the war. The Franco-Sweden alliance cause a huge amount of damage. If Adolphus lived, there is a good chance this era doesn't happen. Also I would argue, that the Peasants war, you end up something similar.

I agree with you on the last part, but this point is far to late for that to actually happen. There is far to much bad blood in the air, and the results for a victorious Imperial power would of been just to horrific in the North. Oddly, more then likely a victory by Adophus, the war would of been over soon after. The protestants didn't have the power to take the whole of the empire, and also the empire was not going to take the north. This would of forced them to make a peace to end the war. Also, if you want to get techincal, without Adophus, there is a great change Sweden is a lot weaker, and maybe even weak enough for the Danes to force Sweden back into its sphere of influence. Then the Danish portion of the war would of been so much worse.

The best way to save a large amount of lives is if the war had not begun in the first place. I think there are chances this war could of been put of, at least.
 
I have to agree that the Swedish army acted like bastards from time to time but you have to remember that a large portion of the army consisted of German mercenaries whom Gustaf did not trust at all, first there were
the Swedish and the Finns whom he trusted completely and furthermore they were not mercenaries, then there were the English and the Scots whom he trusted almost completely and then there were the Germans....
 
Richelieu was still getting his own budget and finances prepared and up to level when Adolphus died. Also there is no way, Richelieu does not get involved in the war. First it creates a unified Germany, which has more manpower and resources then France. It also creates a situation where the Hansburg family rules everything around France, and puts him in very dangerous spot. Richelieu was very smart and could see the danger to France in this situation and knew he had to act.
 
Also, if you want to get techincal, without Adophus, there is a great change Sweden is a lot weaker, and maybe even weak enough for the Danes to force Sweden back into its sphere of influence. Then the Danish portion of the war would of been so much worse.

Interestingly the Danish part of the war would have looked much different if there was no Gustavus. There might not even have been a Danish part.
Surely Christian IV wanted North German princedoms for his brothers and sons to sustain them but the real trigger for his joining up was a perception that Sweden was about to make the Baltic a Swedish lake. THAT was unacceptable to Christian.
With no Gustavus or at least no Swedish picking off ports on the Baltic coast Christian might just have sat in Copenhagen picking off a few secularized Bishop sees for his brothers and sons and financed the Winter King - being related to his Queen.
In fact such a situation might have had Christian turn his attention to Poland, percieved as the greater danger and thus some alliance building in North Germany directed against Poland.
Christian was sure of a Polish catholic plot against him early on.
 

bard32

Banned
Richelieu was still getting his own budget and finances prepared and up to level when Adolphus died. Also there is no way, Richelieu does not get involved in the war. First it creates a unified Germany, which has more manpower and resources then France. It also creates a situation where the Hansburg family rules everything around France, and puts him in very dangerous spot. Richelieu was very smart and could see the danger to France in this situation and knew he had to act.

That's right. I read that Gustavus Adolphus created the Swedish Army by
having musketeers in a line.
 
That's right. I read that Gustavus Adolphus created the Swedish Army by
having musketeers in a line.
That is correct he had standing in a line 3 deep, one on its knees, the next crouching and the third standing up, then they fired in unison.
One more thing his name is not Gustavus that is the latin form it is Gustaf Adolf nothing else!
 
Interestingly the Danish part of the war would have looked much different if there was no Gustavus. There might not even have been a Danish part.
Surely Christian IV wanted North German princedoms for his brothers and sons to sustain them but the real trigger for his joining up was a perception that Sweden was about to make the Baltic a Swedish lake. THAT was unacceptable to Christian.
With no Gustavus or at least no Swedish picking off ports on the Baltic coast Christian might just have sat in Copenhagen picking off a few secularized Bishop sees for his brothers and sons and financed the Winter King - being related to his Queen.
In fact such a situation might have had Christian turn his attention to Poland, percieved as the greater danger and thus some alliance building in North Germany directed against Poland.
Christian was sure of a Polish catholic plot against him early on.

Sorry to poke holes in your analysis, but didn't the Danes get involved in the Thirty Years War before Sweden entered it? I'm 99% sure that's the case and Wikipedia backs me up on the matter, so unless there's some other fact I'm missing no Gustavus Adolphus doesn't stop Danish intervention.

One intriguing possibility that occured to me; if Sweden was in no position to make an effective military intervention due to no Gustavus Adolphus then who else might Richelieu bankroll to cause trouble for the Habsburgs? England's busy with internal troubles and not too friendly with France anyway, while the Ottomans and Poland are busy on other fronts (including a war with each other) and can't really afford to get involved, not to mention their lack of religious motivation.
 
Eh, that may be, but if theres never a Swedish expedition to begin with that would be even better.

As I read it, the Swedish army was initially the best-disciplined one in the war. It degenerated later, after the King's death, when the original force had been depleted and they had to rely on German mercenaries. At some point, the original army's laws ceased to be enforced. An even better PoD might be to have the King live...
 
Sorry to poke holes in your analysis, but didn't the Danes get involved in the Thirty Years War before Sweden entered it? I'm 99% sure that's the case and Wikipedia backs me up on the matter, so unless there's some other fact I'm missing no Gustavus Adolphus doesn't stop Danish intervention.

Ideed - but my point is that prior the Danish involvement, the Swedish picking off of Baltic territory and ports made Christian IV opt for joining up in the war before Gustavus could enter!
 
Ideed - but my point is that prior the Danish involvement, the Swedish picking off of Baltic territory and ports made Christian IV opt for joining up in the war before Gustavus could enter!

Ah, now I see what you meant.

Well, if there are no Swedes or Danes involved then Richelieu is going to have to commit French forces to the Thirty Years War much earlier than OTL.
 
Ah, now I see what you meant.

Well, if there are no Swedes or Danes involved then Richelieu is going to have to commit French forces to the Thirty Years War much earlier than OTL.

But OTOH the Emperor just might not see the need for Wallenstein leaving him to tend to his lands in Bohemia. Lesser threat less forces needed.
 
Eh, that may be, but if theres never a Swedish expedition to begin with that would be even better.

That's a fallacy and a half. It's like saying "Indian nationalism caused the problems of 1947, so clearly they should have stayed willingly under British rule". Or, at risk of invoking the Godwinites, "German nationalism led to... certain problems, so all German nationalism is regrettable".
 
Top