Gurkani Alam

[Tony Jones]

Tony Jones, I think you've been missing my point this whole time. In the 6th century, or maybe(though...) even in anytime before 20th, the name "Sunda" was used only for the country of Sunda only, that is where the Kingdom of Sunda/Pasundan was located. But at least maybe since the beginning of 20th century, other than to refer the original Sundanese land, somehow the name "Sunda" began to be used also to refer some parts of Nusantara archipelago. And also, to mention the most important point that should be noted, there was never a Sundanese maritime empire (and this negates the historical validity!). Hence I found the use of "Sunda" to regard Indonesia Archipelago exclude Eastern Indonesian (Sulawesi, Maluku, Papua) isles in present time as a strange phenomena. Maybe it was the Dutch?

OK. So noted. So what name would you suggest, given that I think Nusantara would be excluded from consideration due to its links to Javanese domination of the region? Are there any alternative names for the Java Sea that might be appropriate?

 

[general_tiu]

Yes. I presume on the shared worlds forum?

Well then, this will be a first.

I think We'll do this at the pre-1900 discussion for formality's sake.

 

[Tony Jones]

1)IMHO, if anything the tech didn't advance fast enough!

Yes, it's true. But I've explained why it went as it did…

2) On that note, you only gave us a very vague understanding of the peace between the Mughal and Russians, as well as changes in the rest of the world. Arguably a summary of before and after the war (similar to the one comparing otl and the Mughal TL in 2000) would have been ideal, listing:
-Territorial changes
-economic and industrial effects
-social effects
-population of major countries relative to before the war, and details on causualties suffered in each case.
-and the peace treaty/ies

Well yes, I see your point. If I feel inspired at any point such a thing may materialise, but don't hold your breath!

4)If anything I would have expected the Mughals to do better. Particularly I was surprised they did not conquer the Indian peninsula(my one quibble-the Mughals had a relatively small area that could actually sustain a population.

Well according to OTL population density maps the highest population density in modern India is just south of the Himalaya, so I think they can sustain a high population.

I didn't want them to conquer the whole of India because it's not as interesting that way, and because in OTL the Mughals under Aurangzeb spent decades trying to do so, and failed, to the great detriment of the Empire. Here they looked north instead.

5)That ignores the 2 worst effects that a (long)war has though- the eventual economic-industrial retardation, and the social discontent (neither of which were satisfactorily covered in MHO)

Well, I covered them in as much detail as I felt was necessary, so I think that's how it'll stay for now, short of any burst of inspiration on my part.

6)In any case the alliances seemed more realpolitik reality then on religious lines to me. Anglo-Denmark for example was always going to oppose a relatively strong and equal(er) France. The majority of the Mughal allies were threatened by the Holy Russian Empire. The only issue I had was Dakshina Nad allying with the Mughals(not likely without major compromise in Dakshina Nad's favour.

Why do you say so? The Holy Russian Empire threatened them too, if only because of the radioactive contamination from the attack that started the Long War.

7) Yes, theirs always the difficulty of "predicting" the future. As it is, I doubt any government would permit a singularity, which would be beyond its control, in TTL or and ATL.

There is indeed! But what makes you think a government could stop a singularity? Governments are very slow to react to change, and short of an enforced worldwide ban on various types of technology (e.g. AI, nanotech) long before they become a possible danger (which I think would be very unlikely given the possible befits of these technologies) then I think a singularity might be over before governments start to react!

Hope I'm not sounding overly critical, but you did request we assit in "ironing out" some of the wrinkles in TTL. Which, considering its size are unavoidable

Well yes, I am taking people's comments on board, but I reserve the right not to do anything with them too!

-More then one map would be ideal! It would kind of assist in understnding the enormous shifts in TTL....one for each of your TL's, which average 400-300 years long... is a bit sparse, safe to say.

Yes more maps would be nice. Given the amount of time I have, I don't think I'll be drawing any any time soon though. Sorry!

And how long did it take to research(actively) and write that TL? Just as a matter of interest.

As it says on the top page it's been about 3 years, all told. Not full time though!

 

[Ridwan Asher]

OK. So noted. So what name would you suggest, given that I think Nusantara would be excluded from consideration due to its links to Javanese domination of the region? Are there any alternative names for the Java Sea that might be appropriate?

Nusantara would be excluded not because of Javanese dominance in the federation, but rather because the size of the union isn't large enough. Nusantara WAS dominated by the Javanese kingdoms TWICE. First by Singhasari, and just a little bit later, by Majapahit Empire, which is technically successor of Singhasari.

I still haven't got the right official name for this federation yet. But I would suggest that this federation should be commonly known as "Sarekat" (Javanese for "Union").

 

[Magnificate]

Thanks for your answers Tony, they were helpful.

As for electricity, if the link between electricity and magnetism is discovered 100 years earlier than in OTL what happens in the ATL, or something similar, would happen, I think!

As far as I know modern science/research is in most cases interdisciplinary. That means for modern discoveries and developments in electronics you need advanced mathematics and theoretical physics (I remember they have Partial Unification Theory in Monarchy World) , even chemistry. Therefore I find it strange that one “branch of research three” is three generations ahead of other branches. To conclude, in my opinion If science in general is 25 years ahead of OTL, then electrics might be 50 years ahead, but not 100 years ahead.

Other question related to electronics ITTL. Just how prevalent were intelligent weapons in the Long War? What about countermeasures for intelligent weapons? Also, what about EMP-based weapons? One “data-scrambler” electromagnetic pulse “bomb” smuggled and detonated in Delhi in opening stages of the Long War would wreck Mughal economy.

2) On that note, you only gave us a very vague understnding of the peace between the Mughal and Russians, as well as changes in the rest of the world. Arguably a summary of before and after the war(similar to the one comparing otl and the Mughal TL in 2000) would have been ideal, listing:
-Territorial changes
-economic and industrial effects
-social effects
-population of major countries relative to before the war, and details on causualties suffered in each case.
-and the peace treaty/ies

Seconded.

Another issue regarding Long War you could focus on, if you have time is the exhaustion of resources. In case of war materials it is quite well explained, but what about manpower?

Yes more maps would be nice. Given the amount of time I have, I don't think I'll be drawing any any time soon though. Sorry!

You could always request such map in the Map Thread.

I’ve spotted a minor inconsistency in TTL Russia description:

The only high-technology buildings in the Holy Russian Empire are found in the Kremlins of the Russian Orthodox Church that exist in all towns and cities. Even so, no buildings of any kind are allowed to be higher than the roof of the local cathedral(s), as they do not wish to overtop the works of God with the works of man.

Public buildings are also built with high technology, so that many cities have a centre consisting of skyscrapers in the midst of a sea of cottages, with advanced electric trains running next to roads of dirt and mud.

Unless of course in Holy Russia cathedrals are higher that skyscrapers. ;_

 

[Tony Jones]

I stumbled upon another TL idea while reading Gurkani Alam. Notice that PODs for Mughal World (1644) and Puritan World (1639) are in the same time period. So what if we combine these two timelines? Or even better, what if we combine “Gurkani Alam”-lite with Berwick? Imagine:
- European colonization is restricted in both Asia AND North America. That means even more focus on Africa and South America. Or maybe European powers would try reclaim North America from The Commonwealth? Would we end up with The Commonwealth based in OTL California, West Canada, Siberia, Japan with colonies/puppets/clients in Manchuria and parts of Australia?
- Technological development retarded at first, but then quickly catching up due to synergy between Europe and India.
- Industrialization occurring in Europe (France, maybe some German states as well) AND India (Mughals) AND America (Commonwealth) at relatively the same time. (A bit later than OTL)
- Weak, more authoritarian, Scot-less, Britain with negligible colonial empire (but still independent unlike Puritan World),
- Strong France (leading colonial power ITTL), strong Sweden (take a look at Berwick timeline).

I do like this whole idea (not that I'm likely to develop it any further, alas).

However, I think you could go further than this and get a world as above, but with a different spin on things you could have the Enlightenment passing Europe by but taking root in a strong Mughal India. This would lead to Europe and the Americas remaining underdeveloped while it is India driving the industrial revolution and so on with the rest of the world riding on its coat-tails. By the present day this might lead to a world at about the same level of technology, but with the world centred on India (and perhaps elsewhere in Asia) rather than Europe and America...

 

[Rockingham]

1)I didn't want them to conquer the whole of India because it's not as interesting that way, and because in OTL the Mughals under Aurangzeb spent decades trying to do so, and failed, to the great detriment of the Empire. Here they looked north instead.


2)Why do you say so? The Holy Russian Empire threatened them too, if only because of the radioactive contamination from the attack that started the Long War.



3)There is indeed! But what makes you think a government could stop a singularity? Governments are very slow to react to change, and short of an enforced worldwide ban on various types of technology (e.g. AI, nanotech) long before they become a possible danger (which I think would be very unlikely given the possible befits of these technologies) then I think a singularity might be over before governments start to react!



4)Well yes, I am taking people's comments on board, but I reserve the right not to do anything with them too!

1)I know, I was just pointing out that it wasn't a total wank

2) Because France had remained a colonial and naval power, and therfore Britians principal rival. Naval and colonial supremacy would balance out the shift on the BoP in Europe.

3) The fact that the capabilties of technology will be quite clear, and so will the approach of a singularity. No governemnt will permit a force superior to itself, in its own country.

4) Sorry if I sound a bit pushy.

 

[Tony Jones]

I still haven't got the right official name for this federation yet. But I would suggest that this federation should be commonly known as "Sarekat" (Javanese for "Union").

Is there a Javanese word that more closely matches the English meaning of federation than Sarekat? If not then OK. I await your suggestion for an official name with interest...

As far as I know modern science/research is in most cases interdisciplinary. That means for modern discoveries and developments in electronics you need advanced mathematics and theoretical physics (I remember they have Partial Unification Theory in Monarchy World) , even chemistry. Therefore I find it strange that one “branch of research three” is three generations ahead of other branches. To conclude, in my opinion If science in general is 25 years ahead of OTL, then electrics might be 50 years ahead, but not 100 years ahead.

You could certainly make a good case for that. However, I think I've justified why I didn't want that in earlier posts.

Other question related to electronics ITTL. Just how prevalent were intelligent weapons in the Long War? What about countermeasures for intelligent weapons? Also, what about EMP-based weapons? One “data-scrambler” electromagnetic pulse “bomb” smuggled and detonated in Delhi in opening stages of the Long War would wreck Mughal economy.

A good question! I shall consider it…

Another issue regarding Long War you could focus on, if you have time is the exhaustion of resources. In case of war materials it is quite well explained, but what about manpower?

I'll consider this too.

I’ve spotted a minor inconsistency in TTL Russia description:

Oh yes! Whoops! Thanks! It'll be fixed the next time I update the pages.

 

[Tony Jones]

3) The fact that the capabilties of technology will be quite clear, and so will the approach of a singularity. No governemnt will permit a force superior to itself, in its own country.

Not so clear that there won't be scepticism, differences of opinion etc. One analogy might be with global warming - some disbelieve it, many believe it but even among those there are vast differences of opinion on how to handle it, leading to procrastination, time-wasting etc.

With the technologies that might lead to a singularity I can see there being the same factors in play, only with the additional factor that the technologies also hold out the hope of a vast advantage for a country with them (unlike global warming). Which no country is going to want their rivals to get ahead of them in (even if they may not be sure other nations are working on them the potential that they might is still there). Thus actually motivating them to work to advance those technologies even more!

Let alone what might be going in the labs of coporations around the world.

 

[Sgt Detritus]

It's true! At last...

By the way if anyone who speaks more Farsi than me (i.e. any!) can correct my translations in the ATL I would be most grateful (e.g. is Gurkani Alam really Farsi for Mughal World?)...

Having had quick look at Gurkani Alam I can only say..... Wow!!

It makes me wonder why I even bother with AH cos I'll never create something as detailed as that!!!

 

[Tony Jones]

Thanks!

But you shouldn't be put off because I'm so obsessive! Given the breath of history I'm 100% sure there are plenty of PoDs that haven't been considered at all, and that people would be interested in reading about, even if the writer didn't go into massive detail...

 

[Sgt Detritus]

Thanks!

But you shouldn't be put off because I'm so obsessive! Given the breath of history I'm 100% sure there are plenty of PoDs that haven't been considered at all, and that people would be interested in reading about, even if the writer didn't go into massive detail...

Well I have done one where the POD is a different result in the War of 1812. That war tends to get forgotten in the AH mix between alt-Wars of Indepence and alt-Civil Wars.

BTW Just noticed that there is a link to my AH website on your page

 

[Tony Jones]

Well I have done one where the POD is a different result in the War of 1812. That war tends to get forgotten in the AH mix between alt-Wars of Indepence and alt-Civil Wars.

Cool. It's true that the War of 1812 does get less attention than others...

BTW Just noticed that there is a link to my AH website on your page

Well, it's there for a reason!

--------

Also, I've updated the Gurkani Alam site to account for most of the comments above. Just waiting for Xenophobo-phobic guy to get back to me about names for the Federation of Sunda...

 

[Nekromans]

You have the House of Lords being the House of Notables, but the Royal Universal Company section refers to a "Second House of Lords". Sorry for the nitpicking, I really am loving this world.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

OK. So noted. So what name would you suggest, given that I think Nusantara would be excluded from consideration due to its links to Javanese domination of the region? Are there any alternative names for the Java Sea that might be appropriate?

There was not even a "Java" before this man appeared.

Is there a Javanese word that more closely matches the English meaning of federation than Sarekat? If not then OK. I await your suggestion for an official name with interest...

"Sarekat" can stand for both "union" and "federation" in Javanese.

Also, I've updated the Gurkani Alam site to account for most of the comments above. Just waiting for Xenophobo-phobic guy to get back to me about names for the Federation of Sunda...

Sorry for make you waiting for to long... Here is the formal name :

- Sarekat Negara-negara Jawani (Union of Civilized States)

I would suggest that they should be commonly known as "Sarekat" ITTL.

 

[David bar Elias]

What's the world population of Gurkani Alam? I'm guessing it's larger than our world's by a fair amount.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

What's the world population of Gurkani Alam? I'm guessing it's larger than our world's by a fair amount.

Here is the information about little more than he population.

 

[David bar Elias]

Here is the information about little more than he population.

Ahh, thanks. I knew I must have missed it.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Bumping for only reminding Tony Jones that I had posted the name for the Federation here .

Btw, for anybody who still don't realize who is me, it's me, Xenophobo-phobic Guy !

 

[Susano]

*sighs*

http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/alternate_history/disunited_germany
http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/alternate_history/disunited_italy
And disunited China... that seems to be the norm in any of your works.... how cliche... Other then that, good work.And I always bitch about the former anyways, so dont take that too serious