Gurkani Alam
- Thread starter Magnificate
- Start date
What do you mean? Please give examples!
Does it?! Where do you think they are? I'm pretty sure I made sure there weren't any left...
Why do you say so?
Thanks! Though it was inspired by a thred on this very forum so I can't claim total credit for it...
Thande
Donor
Eh, just the whole "religious tolerance FTW!" attitude. Sure, Aurangzeb's alienating the Hindus certainly hastened the decline of the Mughals, and you can make a case for the revocation of the edict of Nantes ultimately harming France due to losing the Huguenots' ingenuity and technical skill, but you apply this too widely, as though it was a general principle. I noticed this in Puritan World as well. There are plenty of counter-examples.
The eastern border of Bavaria and part of the southern border of Prussia are the ones that leapt out at me...Tony Jones said:
Even so.Tony Jones said:
I must congratulate you on your flags as well - as on your other TLs, some of the best and most original ideas.
One other issue I just thought of - I think you may have divvied up Australia too much (unless it's a case of having colonies for the sake of having colonies, like Antarctica). Scarecrow usually does this rant about small Australian colonies usually not being sustainable. I thought your three-way division in Puritan World is about the maximum plausible division of Australia into viable colonies/states that's possible.
Thande
Donor
Well, given that the POD is in the seventeenth century, they could easily be rendered differently by Europeans than OTL. After all, people said 'Algerine' instead of 'Algerian' until fairly recently, for instance...Because that's what they were called...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripolitania
http://www.euratlas.com/history_europe/europe_map_1800.html
Even Europeans aren't that bad...
But, at least "Algerine" actually looks like "Algerian"...
Thande
Donor
It's just a different pattern of Latinisation.Even Europeans aren't that bad...
But, at least "Algerine" actually looks like "Algerian"...
Although I agree that Tripolitania should be the form here, because there is a history to it and because it flows a lot better off the tongue.
However I think Tunisia was just called 'Tunis' (no distinguishing between the city and the country) until relatively recently.
Thande
Donor
The stopgap measure is, of course, just call it "Carthage", like in Puritan World...
I think Tunis=Carthage should be one of those 'Coolness' AH cliches, like calling America Atlantis or a New Holy Roman Empire...
*suddenly remembers some of Tony's earlier TLs use those; feels embarrassed*
Well, Atlanist (America) was used in Tellus...
But which one of his TLs did he have a New Holy Roman Empire?
I do have one pet peeve, though - equating the Holy Roman Empire with the Austrian Habsburg dominions... (That was in Clive-Less World)
*suddenly remembers some of Tony's earlier TLs use those; feels embarrassed*
Ah well. Guess I'm prejudiced then. The timeline stays as it is though...
Maybe I shall adjust them then...
Thanks!
There is definately a bit of colonies for the sake of colonies there. But I think that many is do-able. After all most of them are on the more hospitable eastern and northern edges of the continent. They may have quite low populations though...
I shall consider a rename of Tunisitania and Tripolisia too...
No, it was new, because the old HRE was dissolved, then a new one was formed some time later...
I’ve read thought Mughal World. (All opinions posted below are subjective and not based on proper analysis. That would come later, when I fully digest this timeline and consult with my group.)
General Impressions:
1. Mughal World is an impressive timeline. Contrary to most other timelines it involves not only alternate political history, but also alternate cultural, sociological and scientific developments. Over 70 pages of font size 7 text in three columns. Over twice as long as Clive-less Worlld.
2. It’s a bit hard to fallow. Why? Mostly because I know next to nothing about non-colonial history of Indian subcontinent nor Oceania. [Explanations in these brackets certainly were helpful.]
3. It’s innovative. There are very few clichés in Mughal World and AFAIK it’s main theme was never fully explored in AH writings. However, there were some instances that where I was under the impression that this world had diverged too much from OTL.
Features that I especially like :
1. Religions. Islam being portrayed as tolerant and inclusive religion. Development of syncretic religions like Los Estudiantes De La Cruz. Existence of proper atheist movement – Vrijdenkerij. Aborigines being treated as saints.
2. Europe not achieving world dominance in a timeline with post-1600 POD without doing a Mughal-wank. (Thought it certainly IS a sort of best case scenario for Indian subcontinent.)
3. No global warming, but much damage done to world ecosystem. Coolness.
4. Computers using trinary logic. An idea I am personally very fond of. I’m glad to find it used in an TL.
5. Orbit denial weapons. Never heard of them before. Interesting way for a large but relatively backwards nation to compete with space capable state.
6. Poland. It’s reforms and is not partitioned. (Through for me being a Polish reader this part is not fleshed enough) Poland it’s first nation to build underground railways. (Ironic since in OTL Warsaw is yet to build any decent metro system.) Significant jewish community integrated with polish society.
7. Holy Chinese Empire. Oppressive Orthodox China is just to cool to pass on.
8. Scotland with small, but neat colonial empire. Scottish banks. (Wouldn’t they find themselves in conflict with Swiss bankers?)
9. I’m also fond of Dutch-descended nations coupled with no Netherlands in Europe and central asia Khanates.
Other comments:
1. As is the case with your other timelines, butterfly effect is limited in cases of child births. This is especially evident with royal families, for example August II the Strong Being was born in 1670, that is nearly 30 years after the POD. IMHO it would be both easier and more “elegant” to deal with analogues.
2. Long War. Is it really possible to sustain a 50 years war fought with modern technology? I know Long War never degenerated into all-out total war or nuclear exchange, but still I find it strange. I think the main question is, just how much were civilians affected? Were cities bombed/razed? How about civilian infrastructure?
3. Power blocks defined by religious tolerance? I just don’t think this issue is significant enough. Don’t get me wrong, it is important but it cannot compare to mayor ideological-economical differences (think OTL: Communism vs. Democracy/Capitalism), nationalisms (think Monarchy World: England vs. Russia vs. China), attitude to social/technological changes (think Clive-less World: Traditionalism vs. Progressivism) or particular religions (think Puritan World: Puritans vs. Octuple Alliance) Or maybe you intended power blocks to remain more vague / less clearly defined ITTL?
4. Rate of technological development. Timelines with accelerated tech rate are scarce and I like your newer timelines for breaking this trend. However, ITTL inventions and discoveries seem seems to appear just a tad too fast. Especially electrical-based science being century ahead of OTL.
5. England-Denmark. Sorry, but for me it seems random and lacks coolness-factor.
6. Sarajevo Pact. You have a thing for central European alliances don’t you? (HRE in Puritan World, Austro-Hungarian empire and it’s associated states in Monarchy World, HRE in Clive-less World, Sarajevo Pact ITTL.)
7. Lithuania? I either missed it or you haven’t mentioned this country ITTL. What happened to them?
8. Title. It does not register on Google. (Google only finds this thread.) Maybe you should rename it to simply Mughal World or Shah World or even Aurangzeb-less World?
Ideas, suggestions and requests:
1. In popular culture ninjas were replaced with thuggess. How about vampires and werewolves being replaced with Efreet (Indian origin, intelligent, charming, but violent spirit embodying fire) and Utopiec (Slavic origin, meaning “drowned-man”, plural Utopce, sort of mindless, indestructible, zombie-like creature)?
That would come later, when I fully digest this timeline and consult with my group.)General Impressions:
1. Mughal World is an impressive timeline. Contrary to most other timelines it involves not only alternate political history, but also alternate cultural, sociological and scientific developments. Over 70 pages of font size 7 text in three columns. Over twice as long as Clive-less Worlld.
2. It’s a bit hard to fallow. Why? Mostly because I know next to nothing about non-colonial history of Indian subcontinent nor Oceania. [Explanations in these brackets certainly were helpful.]
3. It’s innovative. There are very few clichés in Mughal World and AFAIK it’s main theme was never fully explored in AH writings. However, there were some instances that where I was under the impression that this world had diverged too much from OTL.
Features that I especially like :
1. Religions. Islam being portrayed as tolerant and inclusive religion. Development of syncretic religions like Los Estudiantes De La Cruz. Existence of proper atheist movement – Vrijdenkerij. Aborigines being treated as saints.
2. Europe not achieving world dominance in a timeline with post-1600 POD without doing a Mughal-wank. (Thought it certainly IS a sort of best case scenario for Indian subcontinent.)
3. No global warming, but much damage done to world ecosystem. Coolness.
4. Computers using trinary logic. An idea I am personally very fond of. I’m glad to find it used in an TL.
5. Orbit denial weapons. Never heard of them before. Interesting way for a large but relatively backwards nation to compete with space capable state.
6. Poland. It’s reforms and is not partitioned. (Through for me being a Polish reader this part is not fleshed enough) Poland it’s first nation to build underground railways. (Ironic since in OTL Warsaw is yet to build any decent metro system.) Significant jewish community integrated with polish society.
7. Holy Chinese Empire. Oppressive Orthodox China is just to cool to pass on.
8. Scotland with small, but neat colonial empire. Scottish banks. (Wouldn’t they find themselves in conflict with Swiss bankers?)
9. I’m also fond of Dutch-descended nations coupled with no Netherlands in Europe and central asia Khanates.
Other comments:
1. As is the case with your other timelines, butterfly effect is limited in cases of child births. This is especially evident with royal families, for example August II the Strong Being was born in 1670, that is nearly 30 years after the POD. IMHO it would be both easier and more “elegant” to deal with analogues.
2. Long War. Is it really possible to sustain a 50 years war fought with modern technology? I know Long War never degenerated into all-out total war or nuclear exchange, but still I find it strange. I think the main question is, just how much were civilians affected? Were cities bombed/razed? How about civilian infrastructure?
3. Power blocks defined by religious tolerance? I just don’t think this issue is significant enough. Don’t get me wrong, it is important but it cannot compare to mayor ideological-economical differences (think OTL: Communism vs. Democracy/Capitalism), nationalisms (think Monarchy World: England vs. Russia vs. China), attitude to social/technological changes (think Clive-less World: Traditionalism vs. Progressivism) or particular religions (think Puritan World: Puritans vs. Octuple Alliance) Or maybe you intended power blocks to remain more vague / less clearly defined ITTL?
4. Rate of technological development. Timelines with accelerated tech rate are scarce and I like your newer timelines for breaking this trend. However, ITTL inventions and discoveries seem seems to appear just a tad too fast. Especially electrical-based science being century ahead of OTL.
5. England-Denmark. Sorry, but for me it seems random and lacks coolness-factor.
6. Sarajevo Pact. You have a thing for central European alliances don’t you?
(HRE in Puritan World, Austro-Hungarian empire and it’s associated states in Monarchy World, HRE in Clive-less World, Sarajevo Pact ITTL.)7. Lithuania? I either missed it or you haven’t mentioned this country ITTL. What happened to them?
8. Title. It does not register on Google. (Google only finds this thread.) Maybe you should rename it to simply Mughal World or Shah World or even Aurangzeb-less World?
Ideas, suggestions and requests:
1. In popular culture ninjas were replaced with thuggess. How about vampires and werewolves being replaced with Efreet (Indian origin, intelligent, charming, but violent spirit embodying fire) and Utopiec (Slavic origin, meaning “drowned-man”, plural Utopce, sort of mindless, indestructible, zombie-like creature)?
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1) A good name, unfortunately I think it still doesn't fit for this Federation
. Based on your source, the islands which consists the Sunda isles are :-Sumatra (Samudra)
-Java
-Kalimantan
-Bali
-West Nusa Tenggara (Lombok and Sumba)
-East Nusa Tenggara (Sumbawa, Flores, and Timor)
-and Barat Daya Islands, just north of Timor and Flores.
ITTL Samudra is already its own country, where else East Nusa Tenggara and Barat Daya Isles are what is now ITTL the Gurkani's Subah of Sawu. OTOH Makassar, Buton and Moluccas, which ARE NOT the parts of Sunda Islands, are the parts of this Federation.
More importantly, we don't even know whether the term "Sunda Islands" has been ever used before the day of Indonesian independence......
2) Good idea.
3) Nice.
I wonder whether "Banten/Bantam Pact" or "Banten Union" would more suitable as the name of the federation, while we know that the one there in Europe isn't named as "Brussel Pact" or "Brussel Union"....
BTW, I've been wondering about the members of this federation. I suppose these are the members of the federations :
- Mataram Sultanate(Caliphate?)
- Banten Sultanate
- Sultanate of Kutai
- Makassar
- Buton
- Maluku Alliance ( or Uli Lima and Uli Siwa ?)
- Banjar Sultanate
- Balinese (the state(s) of (in) Bali [and Banyuwangi?])*
- Sasak*
- Sultanate of Surabaya*
- Madura*
- Other East Javanese state(s)*
- State(s) in the Western part of Southern Kalimantan*
*(if these states are not under Mataram annexation)
How is it ?
If it is needed, I will be more than willing to help you on this matter.
@Magnificate : Err, I thought Efreet/Ifrit is from... Arab ?
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Nice. Although I don't quite believe in Holy Russia or the 50-year war myself: Russia is even more isolated and far more anti-intellectual [1] than OTL USSR, yet it manages to keep up with modern tech development to the point where it takes 50 years for the Mughals to develop an absolute military advantage over them - starting with technology quite a bit ahead of OTL 1940's. Also, with a _billion people_, yes you _can_ occupy a country the size of the USSR: [2] holding it, OTOH, if they're a bunch of religious fantatics, may be more of a problem...but you can of course level it to the ground.
(And if Japan is an uberpower in too many TLs, in your TLs it seems to get conquered a bit too often! China tranfers Manchuria - the Manchu homeland - to Russian control, so they can get the rail-linked warmwater ports for the massive invasion? How conveenient. Isn't it convenient how Japan only gets 9 years between first bit of gunpowder diplomacy and full massive invasion, so they don't have enough time to rebuild their army? (OTL, they did this PDQ after Perry). Isn't it convenient how the Dutch leave and there is no other power trading with Japan they can appeal to for help? (Why no trade with the Indian states, which don't have the stigma of being Christians? But perhaps I missed this.) 'Fess up - you just didn't want to deal with the added complication of a strong or semi-strong Japan in your already elaborate TL! )
(Overall, it's pretty magnificent, though).
Bruce
[1] Yes, I can appreciate the paralells between the "monastaries of learning" and the somewhat privileged positions of scientists in OTL's USSR, but the USSR was always counciously pro-technology and pro-science, even if hampered by internal control and censorship.
[2] If Hitler had had 400 million Germans in 1941...
(And if Japan is an uberpower in too many TLs, in your TLs it seems to get conquered a bit too often! China tranfers Manchuria - the Manchu homeland - to Russian control, so they can get the rail-linked warmwater ports for the massive invasion? How conveenient. Isn't it convenient how Japan only gets 9 years between first bit of gunpowder diplomacy and full massive invasion, so they don't have enough time to rebuild their army? (OTL, they did this PDQ after Perry). Isn't it convenient how the Dutch leave and there is no other power trading with Japan they can appeal to for help? (Why no trade with the Indian states, which don't have the stigma of being Christians? But perhaps I missed this.) 'Fess up - you just didn't want to deal with the added complication of a strong or semi-strong Japan in your already elaborate TL!
)(Overall, it's pretty magnificent, though).
Bruce
[1] Yes, I can appreciate the paralells between the "monastaries of learning" and the somewhat privileged positions of scientists in OTL's USSR, but the USSR was always counciously pro-technology and pro-science, even if hampered by internal control and censorship.
[2] If Hitler had had 400 million Germans in 1941...
Nice. Although I don't quite believe in Holy Russia or the 50-year war myself: Russia is even more isolated and far more anti-intellectual [1] than OTL USSR, yet it manages to keep up with modern tech development to the point where it takes 50 years for the Mughals to develop an absolute military advantage over them - starting with technology quite a bit ahead of OTL 1940's. Also, with a _billion people_, yes you _can_ occupy a country the size of the USSR: [2] holding it, OTOH, if they're a bunch of religious fantatics, may be more of a problem...but you can of course level it to the ground.
(And if Japan is an uberpower in too many TLs, in your TLs it seems to get conquered a bit too often! China tranfers Manchuria - the Manchu homeland - to Russian control, so they can get the rail-linked warmwater ports for the massive invasion? How conveenient. Isn't it convenient how Japan only gets 9 years between first bit of gunpowder diplomacy and full massive invasion, so they don't have enough time to rebuild their army? (OTL, they did this PDQ after Perry). Isn't it convenient how the Dutch leave and there is no other power trading with Japan they can appeal to for help? (Why no trade with the Indian states, which don't have the stigma of being Christians? But perhaps I missed this.) 'Fess up - you just didn't want to deal with the added complication of a strong or semi-strong Japan in your already elaborate TL!
(Overall, it's pretty magnificent, though).
Bruce
[1] Yes, I can appreciate the paralells between the "monastaries of learning" and the somewhat privileged positions of scientists in OTL's USSR, but the USSR was always counciously pro-technology and pro-science, even if hampered by internal control and censorship.
[2] If Hitler had had 400 million Germans in 1941...
I second this whole point !
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general_tiu
Banned
Woh. This is a good timeline. Mughal-wankery at its sanest. I think it's time to turn to Tony Jones on how to make a proper Koreano-wank scenario.
My only problem in the timeline is, how feasible would the English and the Danes unite?
My only problem in the timeline is, how feasible would the English and the Danes unite?