Guide to Logistics

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm afraid I don't know much about over-the-beach or port supply - certainly not enough to give a good précis.

But the very simple version of it is - landing supplies in an undamaged port under your control is easy; landing small amounts of supplies more or less anywhere is doable; supporting a large army from a hostile landing is very hard indeed; supporting a large army over the beach without specialized landing craft means you're breaking bulk twice just getting the supplies ashore (Transport to ship's lighter; ship's lighter to shore) and your bottleneck will be narrow indeed.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I know it's been a few months, but I think this topic is a bit Logistical.



Manouvrist warfare


Logistical supply affects battles, tactics and operational art as well as strategy. In a battle, it's fairly simple - if you have supplies, you can fight, and generally the more supplies you have the better you can fight - though there's diminishing returns.



If you have twice as many shells as your opponent, your artillery fire is less than twice as effective because your opponent will fire only the shots which really matter. (To use one example.) But if he has very few shells, you can still do things which would otherwise be difficult - so he may be compelled to keep up his normal consumption to keep you from realizing.

This shades into tactics, so I'll switch to my real topic - manouvrist warfare.



The basic concept of manouvrist warfare is that you don't need to attack the main force of your enemy - certainly not on their terms. Sometimes you can try to turn past them and get at their capital, or an important political target, or just try to get behind their entrenched position.

But by far the most common reason for attempting manoeuvre is to threaten or secure supply lines.

If you can cut your enemy off from supplies, especially in the gunpowder era (but by no means just then) you have essentially scored a victory without having to fight at all. This can be hard, but from the logistical and strategic point of view pays massive dividends - not only have you not expended the ammunition which a battle would have cost, but you've also managed to preserve the lives of more of your men than a head-on attack would leave.
Conversely, if you have not cut your enemy off from supplies, then you haven't won a victory at all. At best you've gained some other operational bonus, but an army still getting meaningful amounts of supplies is unlikely to wither on the vine. It will take resources to contain, and may even be able to pin you between itself and reinforcements.


This is again veering away from the question of logistics.


There's a caveat to manouvrist warfare, though, and it's a logistical one. Usually, it requires better - more sound, more efficient - logistics setups, and it can mean a startling amount of your army is expended in the supply train. Some American Civil War armies, when operating off ox-cart supply lines instead of directly from a nearby rail head, could end up being almost 50% drovers and supply line guards.
It also means you have a choice - either try to manoeuvre at the speed of your supply chain (roughly 10 miles per day if it's ox cart based) or break away from your supplies entirely and march fast, living off the land and a few days' issue rations.
This is a daring, bold choice to take. It involves putting your army in logistical jeopardy in return for a drastic increase in mobility - and it tires your men out.
But it might just win you a war. And if you can live off enemy land, maybe you don't care much about the results.
...just don't try to run supplies through later. They'll be angry.
 
I recently wondered about panzers getting fuel from civilian petrol stations in France, which made me think of living off the land.

Apart from pinching fuel and raiding markets etc what else can 20th Century armies get living off the land?
 
I know it's been a few months, but I think this topic is a bit Logistical.



Manouvrist warfare


Logistical supply affects battles, tactics and operational art as well as strategy. In a battle, it's fairly simple - if you have supplies, you can fight, and generally the more supplies you have the better you can fight - though there's diminishing returns.



If you have twice as many shells as your opponent, your artillery fire is less than twice as effective because your opponent will fire only the shots which really matter. (To use one example.) But if he has very few shells, you can still do things which would otherwise be difficult - so he may be compelled to keep up his normal consumption to keep you from realizing.

This shades into tactics, so I'll switch to my real topic - manouvrist warfare.



The basic concept of manouvrist warfare is that you don't need to attack the main force of your enemy - certainly not on their terms. Sometimes you can try to turn past them and get at their capital, or an important political target, or just try to get behind their entrenched position.

But by far the most common reason for attempting manoeuvre is to threaten or secure supply lines.

If you can cut your enemy off from supplies, especially in the gunpowder era (but by no means just then) you have essentially scored a victory without having to fight at all. This can be hard, but from the logistical and strategic point of view pays massive dividends - not only have you not expended the ammunition which a battle would have cost, but you've also managed to preserve the lives of more of your men than a head-on attack would leave.
Conversely, if you have not cut your enemy off from supplies, then you haven't won a victory at all. At best you've gained some other operational bonus, but an army still getting meaningful amounts of supplies is unlikely to wither on the vine. It will take resources to contain, and may even be able to pin you between itself and reinforcements.


This is again veering away from the question of logistics.


There's a caveat to manouvrist warfare, though, and it's a logistical one. Usually, it requires better - more sound, more efficient - logistics setups, and it can mean a startling amount of your army is expended in the supply train. Some American Civil War armies, when operating off ox-cart supply lines instead of directly from a nearby rail head, could end up being almost 50% drovers and supply line guards.
It also means you have a choice - either try to manoeuvre at the speed of your supply chain (roughly 10 miles per day if it's ox cart based) or break away from your supplies entirely and march fast, living off the land and a few days' issue rations.
This is a daring, bold choice to take. It involves putting your army in logistical jeopardy in return for a drastic increase in mobility - and it tires your men out.
But it might just win you a war. And if you can live off enemy land, maybe you don't care much about the results.
...just don't try to run supplies through later. They'll be angry.
Was that based off the Iraq War by any chance? I recall the US shock and awe blitzkrieg outmaneuvering Iraqi divisions in a drive towards Baghdad that left the Iraqi army completely paralyzed, but because no effort was made to secure their supply lines or bypassed cities in their line of advance (in favor of moving more rapidly to prevent the Iraqis from halting their advance with dug in defensive positions in extremely unfavorable terrain), the American supply convoys were constantly ambushed while moving past unsecured cities like you said.

And then while they managed to cut off the supply lines of the opposing Iraqi divisions and forced them to disintegrate on the vine... that doesn't actually mean the Iraqis had stopped fighting.
 
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I recently wondered about panzers getting fuel from civilian petrol stations in France, which made me think of living off the land.

It worked in France. It didn't work in Russia, mainly because Soviet fuel quality was low enough that when the Germans tried to use Soviet fuel they wound up wrecking their own engines. Wasn't a problem for the Soviets because, obviously, their engines were designed to run on the stuff.
 
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I recently wondered about panzers getting fuel from civilian petrol stations in France, which made me think of living off the land.

Apart from pinching fuel and raiding markets etc what else can 20th Century armies get living off the land?
Hm, fiat currency? Most soldiers would accept being paid in paper money nowadays.

If you're an African warlord you could also force conscript children as soldiers and servants to sustain your ranks.
 
...just don't try to run supplies through later. They'll be angry.
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I recently wondered about panzers getting fuel from civilian petrol stations in France, which made me think of living off the land.

Apart from pinching fuel and raiding markets etc what else can 20th Century armies get living off the land?
The classical modern case is the German invasion of the Soviet Union - they launched the invasion knowing full well that they couldn't supply their army with both munitions and food, and that the only way the campaign would work if if they confiscated vast quantities of food. Quantities so vast, in fact, that around a million Soviet civilians would starve to death - and based their entire planning around them doing so. For me that's actually one of the most shocking crimes of the war because they didn't even have anything against those people, they were just inconvenient.
Incidentally, this is another (one of many) reasons that the German treatment of Soviet PoWs was so awful.
 
There's a caveat to manouvrist warfare, though, and it's a logistical one. Usually, it requires better - more sound, more efficient - logistics setups, and it can mean a startling amount of your army is expended in the supply train. Some American Civil War armies, when operating off ox-cart supply lines instead of directly from a nearby rail head, could end up being almost 50% drovers and supply line guards.
It also means you have a choice - either try to manoeuvre at the speed of your supply chain (roughly 10 miles per day if it's ox cart based) or break away from your supplies entirely and march fast, living off the land and a few days' issue rations.
This is a daring, bold choice to take. It involves putting your army in logistical jeopardy in return for a drastic increase in mobility - and it tires your men out.
But it might just win you a war. And if you can live off enemy land, maybe you don't care much about the results.
...just don't try to run supplies through later. They'll be angry.

Was that based off the Iraq War by any chance? I recall the US shock and awe blitzkrieg outmaneuvering Iraqi divisions in a drive towards Baghdad that left the Iraqi army completely paralyzed, but because no effort was made to secure their supply lines or bypassed cities in their line of advance (in favor of moving more rapidly to prevent the Iraqis from halting their advance with dug in defensive positions in extremely unfavorable terrain), the American supply convoys were constantly ambushed while moving past unsecured cities like you said.

And then while they managed to cut off the supply lines of the opposing Iraqi divisions and forced them to disintegrate on the vine... that doesn't actually mean the Iraqis had stopped fighting.

I thought he was thinking of Grant and the Vicksburg campaign. In that case the logistics were so bad - the bayous and bluffs held the Federals up for nearly a year - that cutting loose was practically the only way to make progress.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
The very fact you can draw examples from all over the world supports the idea that manouvrist warfare is constrained by logistics and not by environment.

Though what I was thinking of for the "take supplies and then run lines through" was the Peninsular War in Iberia. The British did a lot better because they actually purchased supplies, and avoided angering the locals so much - but you need to have a LOT of money.
 
Apart from pinching fuel and raiding markets etc what else can 20th Century armies get living off the land?
According to the Imperial Japanese Army, pretty much everything they need, provided the Allies have been allowed to occupy and provision the area first.
 
I'm afraid I don't know much about over-the-beach or port supply - certainly not enough to give a good précis.

But the very simple version of it is - landing supplies in an undamaged port under your control is easy; landing small amounts of supplies more or less anywhere is doable; supporting a large army from a hostile landing is very hard indeed; supporting a large army over the beach without specialized landing craft means you're breaking bulk twice just getting the supplies ashore (Transport to ship's lighter; ship's lighter to shore) and your bottleneck will be narrow indeed.

This may fill in.http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/ship-to-shore-logistics/
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Case Study: American Civil War



The American Civil War happens to be quite a good case study for numerical analysis of supply requirements, and this is for two reasons.
The first is that, in the Civil War, there were only three modes of transport: rail, water and wagon.
The second is that there has been actual mathematical analysis of the required transport, and it helps to explain a lot about the tactical and (especially) strategic movements of the Civil War.


Part 1: To the Supply Dump


For now we'll assume that there's unlimited supplies available somewhere in the country. This is more true for the Union mid-war than anyone else in the ACW, but it's useful to show how much the transport issues are a bottleneck.

The supply dump (or base of supply, depot, or any of a number of other terms) is the place where an army draws their supplies for the last short distance (though that's a relative term). It can be a waterside landing (as was used in the Peninsular War) or a rail head, or ideally a full port (as a port has so much more capacity).
The first kind of problem that can occur is that not enough supplies can reach the supply dump. For this it's worth considering the scale of the problem:

Roughly speaking, a combined-arms army requires 1 ton of supplies every day for every 200 men, or 50 tons per 10,000 men (and the count is total men present, not merely men holding muskets/rifles in the firing line). This is gunpowder, lead, food, shells, but the vast majority is animal feed (because an army without horses is an army without artillery, cavalry or mobility, and an army without any of those things is promptly dead.)
This is quite a lot for a train line to support, more than one might think - a typical single train is 40 cars, and travels at 10-15 miles per hour in this period (smaller trains with fewer cars are faster but carry less).
Each car is about 5-10 tons, depending on gauge, and the real devil is in the details of the railway - a double tracked line can handle it all quite easily, but a single tracked line with sidings is much harder. A single tracked line without sidings is awful - in some cases you have single tracked lines 150 miles long without sidings (though few if any were used in the OTL ACW, one might have to be used for a Trent war) and that basically means all you can do is run a train there and back once a day, allowing for some pretty frantic unloading at the far end... and that means you're delivering enough for a couple of divisions.


With riverine support you can move supplies nearly as fast, but more importantly you can move them in far greater bulk. A few barges arriving per hour is very useful.


Part 2: From the Supply Dump

This is where we can get really mathematical.


There are two ways of supplying an army at this time, and both involve wagons.
1) Circuit supply.

This is where the wagons pick up their supplies at the depot, head to the army, and drop off their supplies before heading back home again in a circuit. What matters here is the distance, and the rate of advance the wagons can manage - since overworking horses kills them very quickly, this is not very high. (An epidemic of foot-in-mouth hit both the armies of McClellan and Lee in quick succession during 1862 - it's during this time that Lincoln made his famous quip about borrowing the army for a short time (a little unfair to McClellan, whose transportation was crippled and thus couldn't move) while Jefferson Davis just purchased more horses.)
For good roads and good weather, the wagons can move fifteen miles per day (one "daily march"). For poor weather it can get much worse, down to a few miles per day at most cross-country. The reason why this matters is that, if you have half the speed of your wagons, you need twice as many wagons to deliver the same supplies to the fighting front... and you need more fodder for those wagons, too.

It turns out to be a mathematical relationship, worked out empirically (and found in Hagerman). For an army of 100,000 (500 tons per day) operating M days march from the depot, W wagons are required:

M W
2 1440
3 2260
4 3140
5 4105
6 5150
7 6280
8 7500
9 8815
10 10230

Why does this matter, particularly, apart from the titanic number of wagons you need by the time you're ten days out?
Well, each of those wagons requires about six horses (IIRC) and, much more importantly, six men to run it on a long-term basis. By the time an army's operating five days from base, 25% of it is on the supply chain alone - and in bad weather, that can be as little as 20 miles. (This happened OTL on the Peninsula, and is something important to consider in, say, a Trent War counterfactual because Canada is very muddy indeed during the thaw).
It also indicates why you really, really need to be careful with disease. Diseased men still consume, but the requirements of the wagon train demand healthy men.


So much for circuit supply, for which the problems scale with the size of the army. What about how smaller forces are more mobile?
The answer is simple... you take the supply wagons with you, and forage.

2) Self Contained Supply.

This method has several downsides, and one of them is that you can't use it long term - the American countryside is simply less well populated than the European one - while another is that you can't go back over the area you used previously. The most famous one, Sherman's March to the Sea, relied on moving during the harvest and on dividing into four columns too far apart for practical mutual support - fortunately there was no-one in the way. In the end he made it to the coast (where he quite gratefully resumed conventional supply) and if he'd been blocked from getting there his army would probably have disintegrated.

For this, one assumes that you start with a given number of wagons, and that you send them back to base as they're emptied. (This means you don't have to keep feeding the draft animals).

The relationship here is more complex, and in Hagerman is simulated based on certain assumptions (one of them a wagon size a little over the typical, at 3,000 lbs per wagon instead of 2,000-2,500, and another that half the animal feed can be found by forage). The results are below, again for an army of 100,000 men:

Days march/ Wagons remaining/ Wagons detached
4.5/ 1300/ 1255
9.5/ 2920/ 2500
14.3/ 4980/ 4080
19/ 7780/ 5740
23.8/ 11670/ 7570

This means that setting off for a 24-day march out of contact for an army of 100,000 men basically means starting with 19,000 wagons - your army is pretty much a wagon train. It also means that you're out of supply at the end of the whole thing.


For a very small force of a few thousand (the kind of thing that happened in the Revolutionary War) it's much, much easier to move without a supply line - it's just so much easier to forage, with an army of 2,000 requiring maybe two tons of food per day (and with four months' winter supplies for a village of 50 people consisting of about a week's food for the army).


Why does this all matter?

Well, it's interesting. And it also explains just why McClellan had to retreat from Richmond in the Seven Days, for example - his supply line, already long (he'd been ordered to fix his supply dump) was blown away and he had to retreat to get back in supply.
It also explains why the movement of most civil war armies is quite slow - they're simply having to re-establish a new base of supply every couple of dozen miles.


Put this way, it's easy to see why the petrol motor was such a massive advance for armies. It made them far less dependent on fodder tonnage, and faster to boot - and it tied up fewer men, with less need to care for horses. The Red Ball express consumed 6,000 vehicles to deliver 12,500 tons of supplies per day, to distances of up to 250 miles - to do the same with Civil War logistics would take, under ideal conditions, 527,000 wagons (or in other words about three million horses).
 
Seconded, this was one of the first threads I really got into when I started AH.com, really shaped and deeply changed how I thought about strategic campaigns.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'm glad to be such a help.


Since I last did this thread I've picked up some more information, and I think I might do a case study about "reinforcing Canada" too.
 
On the topic of horses and logistics, how much did horse logistics improve between 1865 and 1945? In other words, would the Wehrmacht have required 527,000 wagons and 3 million horses to replicate the Red Ball Express, or would they have required less?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
At least one thing that's different is that the assumptions in Hagermann assume "American" density of forage. Western European is easier to forage on (though with so many horses the available forage would be a little swamped).

Aside from that, I'm not sure offhand.
 
So I just read this, thought of a minor thing that doesn't get considered with logistics and such.

The labor force. It's all well and good if you have a well motivated force back at home making it all, but if you say, use PoWs ala the Nazis to make stuff, like say, munitions....

While you aren't paying them, you DO have to spend time guarding them and risking the munitions proving less then ideal.

By contrast, US had German PoWs busy growing food. Simple, easy to monitor, and something that can't be used as a rallying cry.

"See how they force you to make munitions to be used against your comrades in arms!" Vs. "See how they make you grow crops that may go to the front to strengthen the soldiers who are fighting your brothers in arms, but in reality may just go to fellow PoWs or even the civilian market!"
 
Motivating POWs to farm is easy. Just tell them that if they want to eat, they must work in the fields. If they slack off, reduce their rations next year.
 
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