Guess the language!

[Boto von Ageduch]

Do you have a GMP for Rumen that I could see?

Perhaps ... if you would be so kind as to tell what GMP stands for?

 

[Konstantin Paleolog]

Is that sufficiently plausible?

Appears to be.

"Before the Republican period" seems a bit of a stretch to me though. You mean before 500 BC?

Woops, I meant before the imperial period. Afaik Cicero or one of his contemporaries noted the loss of initial /h/ in pronunciation.

I frequently read that in the classical period, h was still weakly pronounced, may it be just something like a glottal stop.

Even if that is true, by the Vulgar Latin and Proto-Romance period, initial and intervocalic /h/ and final /m/ had been lost for centuries.

(Btw, intervocal Latin h (as in mihi) is pronounced as "k" in some contemporary traditions in Romance speaking countries.)

That is an ecclesial pronunciation. It is also entirely innacurate. <mihi> was either [mi:.i] or [mi.i] (and [mi] at the later stages) in Vulgar Latin.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

I suppose you're right, I should ignore Latin h. This would produce mi versus mai ...

As we're at it, there are other points in this language which I'm not yet completely happy with and which could use some reviewing. These are:

- Fate of the consonant groups -ft, -st, -ht, with special regard to the difference between word ending and interior of a word;
- Connected to this question, the timing of the dropping of endings relative to the consonant shifts;
- The vowel shifts i <--> e, u <--> o should be applied more consistently (as in Italian),
- The last point particularly applies to is - "and". I already have es from Latin est ("(he/she/it) is") and wanted some distinction. Moreover, I wanted a consonantic final to enable contraction with the following word. So perhaps a leaned en?




And now the surprise:
Mozarabic has the pronoun mibi (for Spanish mí, i.e. not determined for a case of course) ...

 

[Konstantin Paleolog]

Fate of the consonant groups -ft, -st, -ht, with special regard to the difference between word ending and interior of a word

What Vulgar Latin (VL) consonant clusters do these descend from?

- Connected to this question, the timing of the dropping of endings relative to the consonant shifts;

Timing? I don't quite follow.

The vowel shifts i <--> e, u <--> o should be applied more consistently (as in Italian),

In what position does i > e and u > o? Remember that the (Western) VL sound system consisted of /i e E a O o u/.

- The last point particularly applies to is - "and". I already have es from Latin est ("(he/she/it) is") and wanted some distinction. Moreover, I wanted a consonantic final to enable contraction with the following word. So perhaps a leaned en?

Where does "is" come from?

 

[lord caedus]

Perhaps ... if you would be so kind as to tell what GMP stands for?

Grand Master Plan, the outline of how the Romlang evolves from Latin. For example, Brithenig and some of the other Romlangs in Il Bethisad (from what I remember, Slezan (the Slovenian equivalent), Wenedyk (Polish), & Breathanach (Gaelic) at least) have their GMPs posted online.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

After searching for Brithenig and its peers, I understood you mean a synopsis of sound changes from the base language (Vulgar Latin). Most of them have been detected here:

Yes. This is part of the High German shifts: p > f, t > s(s), k (c) > H (and after light vowels, later) > (h), at the end of a word, and between vowels.

No, ct is another case which went to Ht.

The other shifts are also regular: t > z, k > kH > H > h and p > pf > f if not shifted as above.
Btw, this is even slightly further an evolution than with the most extreme German dialects IOTL. This again sends us deeper into the Southwest ...

Exactly, this is the last remaining part of the core shifts: d > t, b > p, g > k.
Again, this is an Upper German variant.

No, long u goes to au, and long i goes to ai; this change is imported from OTL's Middle High German (and Middle English).

As we are talking vowels, I included two early Italian cosequences of the collapse of Latin vowel quantities,, namely long e > i, short i > e, and similarly for o and u.
I just noticed that this is partially inconsistent with the above diphthongization unless the latter took place very early.

Surprise: It's Uvae - "grapes". Final -a went to -e (shva), ae was shifted to a, as in de caelo > tihale.

Note that the long i in qui is again diphthongized to ai.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

Folks,

I am currently reviewing what I have wreaked here.
There will be refined versions of the texts as well as more comprehensive treatments of the sound shifts available soon.
For the moment, let's conjugate:

Example verb: amer - "to love".

present tense:

ame
amest
amas
amam
amasse
amen


(The amen was unintentionally - I came up with the scheme based on hanzer - "to sing".)

The final -t for the second person singular derives from a postponed tu before the consonant shifts; it was retained to avoid ambivalence with other forms.
Most probably, the same ending in German is based on the example by Rumen;
then postponed German pronoun, which is sometimes used as an explanation for this effect,
is not as convincing since it still read thu in the relevant period, and one would have
to assume an extra dissimilation.


past tense:

amau
amaust
amaus
amaum
amausse
amaun


Of course, there's a lot of analogy at work here.

present perfect = present tence of "have" + past participle (PP)

PP: amas.

It's a pity that you can't really draw a table in here. Perhaps I should really make a wiki page ...

Some notes on PP forming.
The ending depends on the final sound in the Latin root:

1. Roots ending in a vowel. The -t- is regularly shifted to -s(s-). E.g.: natus, nata > nôs, nôsse.

2. Roots ending in a dental -d, -t, -s. These verbs form their PP in -s- already in Latin. The -s(-) remains, but is voiceless in all positions to match group 1. E.g.: visus, visa > vais, vaisse.

3. Roots ending in a liquid -l, -r, -n. Here the -Kt- is shifted regularly to -Kz(-). E.g.: cultus, culta > holz, holze.

4. Roots ending in other plosives -b, -p, -g, -c. Here final stem sound is shifted to the corresponding fricative (-f-, -(h)-, -H-), while the -t- is left alone in this position ("gedeckte Stellung"). However, to adapt to group 3, the -t(-) is shifted further to -z(-). E.g.: captus, capta > *haft, *hafte > hafz, hafze.

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

OK folks, I've reviewed what I've done so far, and rewritten the two texts from above.

Extra decisions I had to take:

• Imperfectum (past tense) forms are all built in analogy to amer, regardless of phonetics; hence:
  amabam > amau, videbam > vaitiu, audiam > otiu, surgam > sorku, faciam > faHiu, eram > erau, habebam > apiu, volebam > vuliu
  ("I loved, I saw, I heard, I stood up, I did, I was, I had, I wanted/would")
  
• By example of the Germanic languages, this past tense is also used as a historic past tense. This is in contrast to Latin and all Romance languages (all? all excepting a small ... listen, forget it) where the perfect is used for this purpose.
  
• As all (...) other Romance languages, Rumen also has a syntactical future, which originates from Vulgar Latin infinitve + present tense of habere "to have".
  "I shall love, thou wilt love ..." would then read amere, amerast, ...
  
• All infinitives end in -er
  
• Important names are untouched from consonant changes.
  For vowels, however, we cannot take any guarantee once you venture into Europe of the Migration Period ...

So, Phew!, this is done. Now keep tuned for the texts:

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

First, the fabula.

Völf en auba

Zo völf quai apius fome
as vis rahme täubs,
fenzine timaure alze.

Zentaus lus frinter
ma lapûraus invanemen
ferque nu fossers lus aHHiter.

Fainelmen si as vulzas e tai(h)s:

"Auba son aspra, nu massra, quume fensau."

 

[Boto von Ageduch]

And now, ladies and gentlemen, may I proudly present to you:
The full Apostolic Creed, in a language in which nobody had ever hoped to see it:

Rhite in aun te, fasser ummenfossin,
FaHtûr tihale e tizerra,
tümins vispels en invispels;

Enin aun siniûr Îsu Krist,
son tite senkol kinz
ene(h) fassre nos anz umme sihole;
te tite,
launn tilaunne,
te vir tite vire;
Kinz nu faHz,
taun sopstanza hu fassra,
ferque ummes faHz;

Quai fur nûs gume e fur solute nostre
tişentius tihale
e frintius harn tisprite san(h)te e(h) Marie verkne
e si faHius gum.

Rhauhifi(h)z fur nups,
fas sop Pont Pilat
e sefolz.

E risorkius in tia terza, sehont şriftauro.
en aşentius in hal
sitis ust te(h)ter tifassre.

Riveneras in klûrie
ust re(h)ter vaibe n morze.
Nu apras faine tisu rekne.

Enin sprit san(h)t
quai e(h) fassre n sone furhites,
quai in seme hu fassre n sones atûras en klûrifa(h)z;
quai parlaus fer furfite.

E llisie aune san(h)te katûl(h)e n apostûl(h)e.
Hufisie aun paftisem in rimissiûne tife(h)ts.
En e(h)pe(h)te risorktiûne timörzes
e vaisse timonte venine.

Omen.

Any questions?