Grossdeutchland without WW2

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There won't be one if the European powers are on reasonable terms. Stalin won't risk taking them all on together. An isolated Germany maybe - not everybody at once.

So we have a slowly evolving democracy in Germany that is not tainted with defeat like the Weimar Republic.

Hitler becomes a cult figure among most Germans like Ataturk became in Turkey.

Today Germany is a full fledged democracy except you can still get fined or imprisoned if you say anything bad about Hitler in a kind of flipside of modern Germany where you can into trouble if you say something good about him.

No WWII. No holocaust, no swift collapse of European empires. Japan and the US eventually go to war over China because the US doesn't have to fix any attention on Europe.

Bad things still happen in the world but it's better that Hitler died in 1938.
 

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Though I forget just where I read it, but it stated that the Poles were actually more anti-Semitic than the Germans.
Before the Nazis yes, but before the Nazis Germany had one of the most accepted Jewish communities in Europe, which is why the Holocaust was somewhat unexpected
 
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So we have a slowly evolving democracy in Germany that is not tainted with defeat like the Weimar Republic.
ummmm, neither Goering, the army, the Corporatist or the Nazis were in any way democrats, and were much more ummm extreme than Franco
 
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Ummmm

Please read what I said earlier on in this thread.
The idea that everything Nazi was Hitler's is simply ridiculous, Hitler simply wanted things to get done sooner than most people did.

Oh and Fascism wouldn't be discredited in this TL, because WWII wouldn't have happened, which I think was important in helping Spain democratize
 
The idea that everything Nazi was Hitler's is simply ridiculous

He wrote the book!! The army swore loyalty to HIM. The Generals were over awed by Him. He was the one who out witted the western democracies.

He made the decisons that mattered. The German people bought into HIM.

The people said Heil Hitler not Heil Nazism.

Yes there were Nazis type beliefs everywhere but only one person commanded the loyalty and respect to keep it all together.

That's why so many people thought that assassinating him would make a big diffrence. That was why so many people tried.

I am not saying that the German people were innocent in this NOT AT ALL.

But if you take him out of the picture then the Nazis stumble on for a generation at best.
 

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He wrote the book!! The army swore loyalty to HIM. The Generals were over awed by Him. He was the one who out witted the western democracies.
Yes, he was crucial in shaping Nazi Germany, and things would have turned out differently had he not being there, but the goals of the army and that of the party weren't that different when it came to foreign policy. The Nazis might not have dominated the army as much, but a war was certainly still possible. It simply wouldn't have being as insane as OTL Germany's war.

Oh and the army had being circumventing Versailles before the ink had even dried on the paper so I don't know why it's a dream for them to do so.
He made the decisons that mattered. The German people bought into HIM.

The people said Heil Hitler not Heil Nazism.
He wasn't the only Nazi leader to have mattered
Yes there were Nazis type beliefs everywhere but only one person commanded the loyalty and respect to keep it all together.
The country kept together fine when Hitler started to drop out of the public eye after 1943, the party mattered a lot too
That's why so many people thought that assassinating him would make a big diffrence. That was why so many people tried.
Yes, it would make a big difference for sure. But what I'm saying is that getting rid of Hitler doesn't mean Germany is going to be peaceful or democractic
 
Yes, he was crucial in shaping Nazi Germany, and things would have turned out differently had he not being there, but the goals of the army and that of the party weren't that different when it came to foreign policy. The Nazis might not have dominated the army as much, but a war was certainly still possible. It simply wouldn't have being as insane as OTL Germany's war.

Oh and the army had being circumventing Versailles before the ink had even dried on the paper so I don't know why it's a dream for them to do so.He wasn't the only Nazi leader to have matteredThe country kept together fine when Hitler started to drop out of the public eye after 1943, the party mattered a lot tooYes, it would make a big difference for sure. But what I'm saying is that getting rid of Hitler doesn't mean Germany is going to be peaceful or democractic

Getting around the restrictions of Versailles is different from invading Poland.

You are right that the Germans wanted to redraw the boundaries but it is my sincere belief that without Hitler they wouldn't have tried and IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO LATE because of the rise of Soviet power especially after 1940.

Germany was in a race against time. Hitler knew that which was why he kept pushing even when his generals were terrified.

If Hitler is out of the picture in 1938 then Nazi power is doomed in the long term. Also Fascism has a shelf life.

Even with no war the example of America as a rich democracy with a strong cultural influence would have had a corrossive effect as time went by.

Eventually people will think goose step or Jazz which is best? Or worse still Rock n Roll versus military marches.
 

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Getting around the restrictions of Versailles is different from invading Poland.
They are both things everyone wanted anyway even the Weimar Republic, there's a reason why there was never an eastern Locarno
You are right that the Germans wanted to redraw the boundaries but it is my sincere belief that without Hitler they wouldn't have tried and IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO LATE because of the rise of Soviet power especially after 1940.
Well, it's not like Germany and Russia didn't cooperate on the issue OTL
Germany was in a race against time. Hitler knew that which was why he kept pushing even when his generals were terrified.
I don't know where that idea came from, Hitler kept pushing because he's Hitler
If Hitler is out of the picture in 1938 then Nazi power is doomed in the long term. Also Fascism has a shelf life.
Probably, but Communism lasted 45 years after Stalin
Even with no war the example of America as a rich democracy with a strong cultural influence would have had a corrossive effect as time went by.

Eventually people will think goose step or Jazz which is best? Or worse still Rock n Roll versus military marches.
I think you are really thinking this in the context of post-WWII
 
They are both things everyone wanted anyway even the Weimar Republic, there's a reason why there was never an eastern LocarnoWell, it's not like Germany and Russia didn't cooperate on the issue OTLI don't know where that idea came from, Hitler kept pushing because he's HitlerProbably, but Communism lasted 45 years after StalinI think you are really thinking this in the context of post-WWII

Communism had a history before Stalin who had other 'giants' before him. Stalin was Stalin. He was not communism.

The ticking clock was the economy which was in trouble in 1939, the rise of the USSR to superpower status (look at the plans for the soviet military for the next 5 years) and the fact that the Britsh and french were rearming rapidly.

Germany's window was 1939/40. Without Hitler they don't do it. The system would gradually implode. All that aggression built up with nowhere to go.
 

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Communism had a history before Stalin who had other 'giants' before him. Stalin was Stalin. He was not communism.
So did Fascism
The ticking clock was the economy which was in trouble in 1939, the rise of the USSR to superpower status (look at the plans for the soviet military for the next 5 years) and the fact that the Britsh and french were rearming rapidly.
No, the British and french rearmament were direct responses to German foreign policy, most people at the time already thought of Soviet Union as the greatest threat from 1919-1938
Germany's window was 1939/40. Without Hitler they don't do it. The system would gradually implode. All that aggression built up with nowhere to go.
Even a slightly outdated German military could take on Czechoslovakia, Poland and France, plus without Hitler rearmament wouldn't go as fast
 
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So did FascismNo, the British and french rearmament were direct responses to German foreign policy, most people at the time already thought of Soviet Union as the greatest threat from 1919-1938Even a slightly outdated German military could take on Czechoslovakia, Poland and France, plus without Hitler rearmament wouldn't go as fast

ummmm.

Fascism poured out of Mussolini's rectum just after WWI and had no real philosophy although they tried to make one.

The Soviet threat was seen as a political one not a military one for most of the time between 1919-38. Poland a newly re established country carved out of three states was able to fight off the Russians in 1921.

The German military didn't want a war with Czechoslovakia!! They even planned a coup if Hitler went ahead. Obviously they didn't think their military could take on Czechoslovakia, Poland and France.

I repeat that Nazism had no real life outside of Hitler.
 

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Fascism poured out of Mussolini's rectum just after WWI and had no real philosophy although they tried to make one.
The merit of ideology is frankly pretty subjective, and the people went along with it
The Soviet threat was seen as a political one not a military one for most of the time between 1919-38. Poland a newly re established country carved out of three states was able to fight off the Russians in 1921.
It was definitely military, USSR circa 1938 was a different thing from 1921, hence the cordon sanitaire.
The German military didn't want a war with Czechoslovakia!! They even planned a coup if Hitler went ahead. Obviously they didn't think their military could take on Czechoslovakia, Poland and France.
Beck and Canaris isn't the whole German military
I repeat that Nazism had no real life outside of Hitler.
:rolleyes:

I really recommend Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
 
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Goring takes over eh? Well fun times, because Germany is now Grossdeutch-banna republic. Corruption of the kind that flourished under Hitler will now be of grotesque proportions under Goring whose avarice was already legendry by 1938. Without Hitler the central power of the state will be very much weaker, allowing Gangsters/regional bosses to acquire ever greater martial benefit low-level corruption will also spread like cancer as German living standards keep falling.

The Nazi economy is an unsalvageable basket-case. The MOAR DAAKA! School of Economics has some very nasty drawbacks, and Goring was already in charge of much of Germany’s economy by 1938 and showed no signs of caring about economics beyond his own personal gain/strengthening the military. Also the German education system has already been ballsed up by Nazi racial bullshit, the idea that Goring will reverse this is BS be was after all a Nazi despite what many here seem to think. He may not be as pro-active at hunting Jews and starting wars but his corrupt, stagnant don’t-rock-the-boat-while-grabbing-moar-stuff style of rule would prevent meaningful reforms to the Nazi state itself. Plus Getman standards of living will really start to suck once the economy stops growing then crashes hard.

Nazi Germany is a major power in the short term but sans WW2 it becomes a cruel joke. Also before people post that Goring will lead a ‘’crusade against communism’’ no just…no.
 
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