Grossdeutchland without WW2

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Deleted member 1487

Let's say that Hitler dies in a plane or car crash after the Munich conference, leaving German leadership in a mess. Goering takes over as the head of a coalition of power in the wake of the Hitler's loss, but after some behind the scenes bloodshed and power struggle. So Germany has remilitarized the Rheinland, annexed Austria, and retaken the Sudenten. She also has signed an agreement that no further claims in Europe are to be made and Goering was not for war to expand the Reich.

What happens now? Obviously Goering is too timid to risk annexing the remaining bits of Czechoslovakia, but there are Germans still in Poland or in the free state of Danzig that popular opinion still wants to reunite with the Reich.

On a domestic note, spending on the military cannot be sustained, so without war, Goering will have to stop military spending and borrowing. That means the economy can double dip in recession and trade imbalances and protective tariffs remain, shutting Germany out of world markets to the point of limiting economic growth. Can Goering leverage trade concessions? I also remember reading that Danzig was eventually supposed to be reunited with East Prussia after Poland finished building up her own port at Gdynia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia
Will Poland ever really decide to give up Danzig? Will the West be willing to pressure her to live up to the intent of the agreement?

Germany also had built up a fair number of business connections in Britain, can these be manipulated for political gain now that Germany has proven itself sane by respecting the Munich agreement?

Hitler was also known for suppressing labor for the gains of business, will this be continued under Goering and what will labor do about it?

Goering was also known to have no anti-semitic personal feelings, is he now going to stop Hitler's Nuremberg policies? What does this mean for Germany's reputation abroad? Does Nazi rule extend beyond a decade or two?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Goering is probably the best thing to happen to Nazi Germany. The only truly pragmatic Nazi(and I even think calling him a Nazi is stretching it. Yes, he was a member of the party, but I really don't think he cared much for antisemitism.)

So. Germany honors Munich, but, everyone knows that Germany will seek West-Prussia & Danzig. They have legitimate claims, and Britain will find Goering far, far, far more palatable than Hitler. I see Poland being dropped like a rotten egg.
 

Deleted member 1487

Would Goering be able to keep the Nazis together without Hitler? Sure he was more respectable and more of a Prussian than Nazi, something the generals would no doubt like. Could we then see a transition to a more Kaiserreich scenario without the Kaiser? I'm not sure where Goering stood on the monarchy, but it seemed that the Nazi party was a means to an end for him, rather than a end in itself.
Would Goering continue the repression of the left and various dissident groups?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Would Goering be able to keep the Nazis together without Hitler? Sure he was more respectable and more of a Prussian than Nazi, something the generals would no doubt like. Could we then see a transition to a more Kaiserreich scenario without the Kaiser? I'm not sure where Goering stood on the monarchy, but it seemed that the Nazi party was a means to an end for him, rather than a end in itself.
Would Goering continue the repression of the left and various dissident groups?
I doubt it would be nearly as bad. Yeah, there'd be some violence and repression, but nothing too bad.

The Nazi Party would likely just become the majority Mildly-Right-Wing Authoritarian party. As for the other nazis, expect purges. No one will miss Goebbels, Himmler or the like. They will be quietly dispatched and given state funerals and the like.

While Goering was sympathetic to the Monarchy, I question him trying to re-institute it. He would probably invite them back, giving them back their land and such, but it'd be very unlikely for him to re-institute it.
 
I would doubt that Himler would allow to control for a long time (both the Reich and the NSDAP) to Goering. Do not you think?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
I would doubt that Himler would allow to control for a long time (both the Reich and the NSDAP) to Goering. Do not you think?

Goering will kill Himmler before Himmler can kill Goering. Goering has the faith of the army. The army hates Himmler with a passion. Goering is "One of them", Himmler is a chicken-farmer turned asshole secret-police chief.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Let's say that Hitler dies in a plane or car crash after the Munich conference, leaving German leadership in a mess.

No need to invoke an ad hoc accident as the PoD. Maurice Bavaud tried to shoot Hitler on November 8, 1938, but he had sadly picked the wrong side of the street and he could not get a good angle to aim. If he by chance had picked the right side of the street, he would have got a decent position to shoot. He does, his aim is true, and the Fuhrer is history. Here is your PoD. Quite nicely, a day before the Kristallnacht.
 

Deleted member 1487

No need to invoke an ad hoc accident as the PoD. Maurice Bavaud tried to shoot Hitler on November 8, 1938, but he had sadly picked the wrong side of the street and he could not get a good angle to aim. If he by chance had picked the right side of the street, he would have got a decent position to shoot. He does, his aim is true, and the Fuhrer is history. Here is your PoD. Quite nicely, a day before the Kristallnacht.

I wanted to avoid a witch hunt after the fact, but seeing as his background wouldn't really open any vulnerable group up to retaliation, perhaps that would work. This doesn't change the fact that how Hitler dies is immaterial though. I am more concerned about how Germany evolves after the death of Hitler and whether the Nazi party falls apart without him. Even with Hitler dead in 1938, the Nazi party is the only legal party at that time. Would that necessarily change with Hitler's death?
 

Commissar

Banned
Goering is probably the best thing to happen to Nazi Germany. The only truly pragmatic Nazi(and I even think calling him a Nazi is stretching it. Yes, he was a member of the party, but I really don't think he cared much for antisemitism.).

That was more his second wife's doing with regard to Jews. Had his first wife survived... "Brain shuts down in horror"
 
Goering will kill Himmler before Himmler can kill Goering. Goering has the faith of the army. The army hates Himmler with a passion. Goering is "One of them", Himmler is a chicken-farmer turned asshole secret-police chief.

Why would he have to... at this point Goeiring and Himmler where getting along... speaking in the familiar "du"... their falling out was much later... in this time period they worked together without any special problems
 
Regathless the POD... and keeping the Ceteris Paribus in the Order(because if Hitler dead.. a lot of the opposition will react to make the possible to kick out the nazis of the power.. but the effort will be futile.

Again.. the Plan Against Poland are a Must(In fact before Hitler betray munich.. they count than they easily will regain Danzign and even.. all the Old Prussian territory in 1914 border) and will be very difficult to butterfly away... maybe if the Nazis are more moderate.. we can see a limited Molotov-Ribbertov only in the Division of Poland(1914 bordier to Germany, some to Prussia..and the rest as a rump state).

After that... depend of the Nazi pragmatism... and how gonna perform in the Economic Area.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Why would he have to... at this point Goeiring and Himmler where getting along... speaking in the familiar "du"... their falling out was much later... in this time period they worked together without any special problems

Really? Everything I've read puts Himmler & Goering at two opposite ends of the spectrum. Without Hitler to give them a common cause, Himmler is dead. There's no way he's going to stay alive under Goering.

Namely being that Goering is an infinitely better politician. He's a war hero, a Junker(well, as good as), he's everything the Right-Wing in Germany wants at the time, and everything the rest of the world wants to see in Germany: Someone to contain the Soviets and keep the peace in Eastern Europe. The means by which Germany acquires that "peace" is largely irrelevant to Britain or France. Goering isn't going to start a war in the west because he finds it utterly futile.

Goering may have the chance to go down in ATL history as the greatest leader and German since Otto von Bismarck himself.
 
Really? Everything I've read puts Himmler & Goering at two opposite ends of the spectrum. Without Hitler to give them a common cause, Himmler is dead. There's no way he's going to stay alive under Goering.

Namely being that Goering is an infinitely better politician. He's a war hero, a Junker(well, as good as), he's everything the Right-Wing in Germany wants at the time, and everything the rest of the world wants to see in Germany: Someone to contain the Soviets and keep the peace in Eastern Europe. The means by which Germany acquires that "peace" is largely irrelevant to Britain or France. Goering isn't going to start a war in the west because he finds it utterly futile.

Goering may have the chance to go down in ATL history as the greatest leader and German since Otto von Bismarck himself.

They worked together to eliminate Rohm, and to marginalize Hess... plus they where instrumental in unseating Fristch together... they had a big falling out and wanted to kill each other... but it was much later

In 1939 Goerings ascension is not garauntee... the army brass hates him as they do with Himmler as well. At his point Hess was Hitler's appointed successor, but he had been highly marginalized by fatboy and baldy. It would come down to who Braustich as chief of the army supports... it could very easily turn into a military junta... he wasn't really a committed Nazi and he was still pretty friendly with Beck.

I guess its not impossible Goering makes some kind of power sharing deal with Braustich where they waste the hard core part of the party, and wipe out the ss leadership with similarities to the night of long knives
 

Typo

Banned
Goering is probably the best thing to happen to Nazi Germany. The only truly pragmatic Nazi(and I even think calling him a Nazi is stretching it. Yes, he was a member of the party, but I really don't think he cared much for antisemitism.).
He certainly didn't mind it, the army was pretty anti-Semitic too by 1938, Fritsch was praising Hitler's war on the Jews after the whole affair with him.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
He certainly didn't mind it, the army was pretty anti-Semitic too by 1938, Fritsch was praising Hitler's war on the Jews after the whole affair with him.

There's a very large difference between not minding something, and actively pursuing it. While no one would say that Americans in the 30s and 40s liked blacks, they weren't trying to kill them either.

Without Hitler, we're probably not going to see a proper holocaust.
 

Typo

Banned
There's a very large difference between not minding something, and actively pursuing it. While no one would say that Americans in the 30s and 40s liked blacks, they weren't trying to kill them either.

Without Hitler, we're probably not going to see a proper holocaust.
Except Antisemitism is a pretty central part of the Nazi ideology.

A "proper" holocaust might not happen, but things are not going to be pleasant for the jews, there are going to be plenty of Nazis (Himmler etc) who wants to go after the Jews with the lukewarm support of Goering and general enthusiasm of the army and the general population
 
Except Antisemitism is a pretty central part of the Nazi ideology.

A "proper" holocaust might not happen, but things are not going to be pleasant for the jews, there are going to be plenty of Nazis (Himmler etc) who wants to go after the Jews with the lukewarm support of Goering and general enthusiasm of the army and the general population
"Unpleasant" and "subjected to a full-blown annihilation attempt" are at least somewhat different. Jews being subjected to a nasty version of an Apartheid regime is a fair bit different than Jews being subjected to an attempt at wiping them out. The fact is that the former, and what you saw earlier in the Nazi regime, was something unpleasantly common in Europe over the centuries. Russian pogroms also leap to mind for what it's worth, too.
 
Though I forget just where I read it, but it stated that the Poles were actually more anti-Semitic than the Germans. It had to do with the Poles being mostly Catholic, while the Germans were mainly Protestant.

Perhaps Goring, if he makes it to power, will ease up on the Jewish question.
 
Let's say that Hitler dies in a plane or car crash after the Munich conference, leaving German leadership in a mess. Goering takes over as the head of a coalition of power in the wake of the Hitler's loss, but after some behind the scenes bloodshed and power struggle. So Germany has remilitarized the Rheinland, annexed Austria, and retaken the Sudenten. She also has signed an agreement that no further claims in Europe are to be made and Goering was not for war to expand the Reich.

What happens now? Obviously Goering is too timid to risk annexing the remaining bits of Czechoslovakia, but there are Germans still in Poland or in the free state of Danzig that popular opinion still wants to reunite with the Reich.

On a domestic note, spending on the military cannot be sustained, so without war, Goering will have to stop military spending and borrowing. That means the economy can double dip in recession and trade imbalances and protective tariffs remain, shutting Germany out of world markets to the point of limiting economic growth. Can Goering leverage trade concessions? I also remember reading that Danzig was eventually supposed to be reunited with East Prussia after Poland finished building up her own port at Gdynia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia
Will Poland ever really decide to give up Danzig? Will the West be willing to pressure her to live up to the intent of the agreement?

Germany also had built up a fair number of business connections in Britain, can these be manipulated for political gain now that Germany has proven itself sane by respecting the Munich agreement?

Hitler was also known for suppressing labor for the gains of business, will this be continued under Goering and what will labor do about it?

Goering was also known to have no anti-semitic personal feelings, is he now going to stop Hitler's Nuremberg policies? What does this mean for Germany's reputation abroad? Does Nazi rule extend beyond a decade or two?

Let's say that Hitler dies in a plane or car crash after the Munich conference, leaving German leadership in a mess. Goering takes over as the head of a coalition of power in the wake of the Hitler's loss, but after some behind the scenes bloodshed and power struggle. So Germany has remilitarized the Rheinland, annexed Austria, and retaken the Sudenten. She also has signed an agreement that no further claims in Europe are to be made and Goering was not for war to expand the Reich.

What happens now? Obviously Goering is too timid to risk annexing the remaining bits of Czechoslovakia, but there are Germans still in Poland or in the free state of Danzig that popular opinion still wants to reunite with the Reich.

On a domestic note, spending on the military cannot be sustained, so without war, Goering will have to stop military spending and borrowing. That means the economy can double dip in recession and trade imbalances and protective tariffs remain, shutting Germany out of world markets to the point of limiting economic growth. Can Goering leverage trade concessions? I also remember reading that Danzig was eventually supposed to be reunited with East Prussia after Poland finished building up her own port at Gdynia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gdynia
Will Poland ever really decide to give up Danzig? Will the West be willing to pressure her to live up to the intent of the agreement?

Germany also had built up a fair number of business connections in Britain, can these be manipulated for political gain now that Germany has proven itself sane by respecting the Munich agreement?

Hitler was also known for suppressing labor for the gains of business, will this be continued under Goering and what will labor do about it?

Goering was also known to have no anti-semitic personal feelings, is he now going to stop Hitler's Nuremberg policies? What does this mean for Germany's reputation abroad? Does Nazi rule extend beyond a decade or two?

Hitler was the Nazis and the Nazis were Hitler! That was pretty much the way it was by 1938.

If Hitler dies (as you said how is not important) then the Nazis lose focus very quickly. Unless they set up Mein Kampf as a kind of Koran that all Germans must follow then the Nazis will evolve into just another Fascist Party.

I guess you could get a Hitler cult religion emerging. Hitler would be the Messiah that saved Germany and who was 'taken from us too early' only to return again if Germany is threatened.

You already have the ritual and the paraphenalia for a religion to emerge. How long it would last is difficult to say.

If Goering emerges as a Leader then his position is a lot weaker than Hitler. He simply doesn't have the rhetoric or the boldness or the other things that characterized Hitler. He would be seen as a pale fat shadow of what had been before.

No invasion of Czechoslovakia or Poland. Why would there be? These were Hitler's plans and Hitler's ideas. To the others reversing ALL of Versailles was a dream. Only Hitler thought it could be done.

The economy would falter in 1939 (as it did OTL). As I have said in another thread only conquest and plunder plus slave labour saved the Nazi economy.

Defence cuts end the military dream. The increasing power of the USSR looms after 1940 and I think the European powers will begin to draw together to face the Soviet threat. By the early 40's the soviets will have a huge well equipped army, truly gigantic airforce and even a new force of giant Battleships that would scare the British.

NATO in 1944 anyone? Maybe it would be called EDT. The European Defence Treaty. The original signatories would be

Poland
Germany
Rumania
Czechoslovakia (if they fear the Soviets more than they resent a post Munich Germany)
France
Britain
Italy
Turkey
Finland
Hungary.

The treaty would be restricted to defence against the USSR only.

The Jews are mostly gone from Germany by 1942. They have gone to America or Palestine. Anti Jewish laws start to become irrelevant.

Racism continues but state enforcement becomes weaker. Fear of Communism is the thing that scares everyone. Hence the EDT.

I cannot get past Goring. Himmler and Goebbels don't amount to anything without Hitler to play with.

The Nazi party could split by the mid 40's as a purified party based on Hitler's teachings emerges. This party is on the margins and is tolerated because it claims to honour Hitler.

Germany slowly returns to democracy in the 1950's. Like a post Franco Spain.

This depends on no Soviet attack on Europe.
 
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