Grenadye Alaso!:A Haiti TL

[Rdffigueira]

Not having the debt will be a major benefit - but on the other hand, this Haiti will have suffered yet another destructive, scorched-earth war. Also, I suspect that Charles X will lose the war with bad grace and that there will be no formal peace treaty or recognition of Haitian independence, so Haiti will remain in an international legal limbo some time longer than OTL. What might really make the difference is a better-regulated domestic economy and access to Latin American markets.

Countries can do just fine without official admission of sovereignty by the former metropolis. If I am not mistaken, Spain took until late the 1800s to recognize Chile, Peru and other countries.

Provided, of course, that the former colonial power is inable to relaunch a reconquest... France (fortunately for the Haitians) might not be in a position to do so.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

Countries can do just fine without official admission of sovereignty by the former metropolis. If I am not mistaken, Spain took until late the 1800s to recognize Chile, Peru and other countries.

If I remember correctly, though, French non-recognition did harm Haiti in the early 19th century because potential trading partners were afraid that they would anger France if they traded with Haiti. Also, Spain pretty clearly recognized a fait accompli in South America after 1825 even though it took decades more to ratify, while it wasn't as clear that France had given up on Haiti. Add that to the common European feeling that Haiti, as a black state, wasn't a "real" country in the way the criollo republics were, and there might be a continuing reluctance to establish political and trade relationships.

 

[Rdffigueira]

If I remember correctly, though, French non-recognition did harm Haiti in the early 19th century because potential trading partners were afraid that they would anger France if they traded with Haiti. Also, Spain pretty clearly recognized a fait accompli in South America after 1825 even though it took decades more to ratify, while it wasn't as clear that France had given up on Haiti. Add that to the common European feeling that Haiti, as a black state, wasn't a "real" country in the way the criollo republics were, and there might be a continuing reluctance to establish political and trade relationships.

Indeed, very interesting point you raised out. Haiti got a poor deal in comparison to other American nations owing to the fact that it was a slave country, and the prestige of its former metropolis severely hampered its capacity of finding commercial partners.

 

[Gian]

Love to see more of this.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

Sorry for the lack of updates. I started grad school this past week and had a lot on my plate, moving in my dorm, classes and the such. However, here will be an update today. And it will be a very interesting one to say the least.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

A Revolution in December?

Decemberist fouding fathers.

Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich

Czar Nicholas 1st.



The Russian Revolution of 1826: Russia in 1825 was a massive empire that survived the Napoleonic wars from the previous decade and aided the Coalition in destroying Napoleon. Alexander 1 of Russia was a national hero leading Russia through times of war and hardship. He was a man who defeated napoleons half a million invading army. He died in November 1825. He had liberal sympathies but he was too preoccupied with the wars with Napoleon to make any semblance of change. One was the issue of serfdom which was an issue that never got resolved. His death was met with national mourning. His successor was thought to be his brother since Alexander had no children. But his younger brother Nicholas seized power. This enraged many liberals who saw Nicholas as an extension of the old regime. Many Russian military officers were tired of the aristocracy of Russia while Europe was surpassing them by. Two groups were plotting revolution. The groups, however, continued to function secretly: There was the Southern Society, based at Tulchin, a small garrison town in Ukraine, in which Pestel was the outstanding figure, and a Northern Society, based in St Petersburg, led by Guard officers Nikita Muraviev, Prince S.P Trubetskoy, and Prince Eugene Obolensky. Pestel wanted to overthrow the Russian monarchy, free the serfs, write up a bill of rights for Russians, make Russia into a republic and land reform. The northern Society wanted a constitutional monarchy akin to Great Britain with a new Constitution with Constantine as Tsar. There were differences but both agreed that Nicholas needed to be taken out. Trubetskoy secretly met with Pestel and both agreed with a plan. The plan was for the revolutionaries to seize the winter palace and proclaim Constantine as tsar. When word spreads to the south for Pestel to organize the serfs into revolt and rebellion and create a peasant army that would overwhelm tsar Nicholas and a monarchist counter-revolution. They agreed to the date to be December 28. The reason was for more careful planning. The other plan was to kill Nicholas. On December 28th Trubetskoy with a force of 15,000 Imperial defectors marched to St Petersburg and denounced Nicholas as Tsar. The hailed support to Constantine as tsar and the Decembrist Constitution. The battle of St Petersburg occurred. The 15,000 Decembrist defeated the 9,000 Monarchist and stormed the Winter Palace. The battle of St.Petersburg is an iconic event in the revolution and Russian history. They arrested and executed Nicholas and his family for crimes against the freedom of Russian people. With St Petersburg under their control. Trubestoky declared that Constantine as tsar and named himself a temporary protector of the Empire until Constantine returned from Poland. Serfs were freed and a revolutionary council was made that was called the Assembly of the Fatherland. Word spread fast that serfs were free and that a revolution happened in Russia. Imperial soldiers who had peasants ties quickly defected to the side of revolutionaries. Pestel started a revolt in Ukraine with a serf/peasant army two weeks later. Monarchist was surprised at how fast the revolt was spreading and they didn't have time to prepare for a counterattack. Nobles were executed in the streets. Constantine was in Poland and when he heard news of the revolt he reluctantly accepted it. However, he was assassinated by Polish nationalist on January 5th. Poland erupted in revolt. Pestel's army grew massive in size and he was marching to St. Petersburg to meet with his comrades in arms. However, when he heard Constantine was assassinated he said to a crowd in Rostov “Well the time has come for Russia to change. This is a sign by God himself who loves Russia that the age of Tsars is over. It is time for a republic!” This drew cheers for him. The Decembrist regime in St.Petersburg was caught off guard by Constantine untimely death and the revolt from the poles. Now they didn't have a tsar for their constitutional monarchy. And the word was pestel had a massive peasant army marching to St. Petersburg. They didn't want to plunge the nation into civil war and they knew the concert of Europe would soon respond with war so they decided to have a meeting with Pestel. Trubestoky met with Pestel on the outskirts of St Petersburg on January 21. They agreed to the formation of a Russian Republic. Elections would start in the spring. Pestel and Trubestoky both were named Guardian protectors of the Russian Republic. They created the revolutionary council that was called the Committee of National Safety. Cossacks soon acclaimed allegiance to the new Republic. Monarchist simply fled Russia for the Austrian-Hungry Empire en masse since the events happened so quickly and they were leaderless for now. They also had major plans for Poland.

Iconic Battle of St.Petersburg

Pavel Pestel

Polish Rebels Praying before battle.


European Reaction: The chancellor of the Austrian Empire Metternich received the words of a republican revolution in Russia with dismay and fury. He worked hard at Vienna to preserve the monarchy balance of Europe and crush liberalism and republicanism. Revolution in Russia was a major problem and needed to address quickly. He called for a Convention in Vienna of European monarch to have a united response to the Russian revolution. Many of Russian monarchs fled Russia for Prussia or Austria. Metternich planned for aa Continental invasion of Russia and even reached out to the Ottoman Empire for help. The goals were to reach St Petersburg and Ukraine. Once in the capital set up a monarchist puppet to rule Russia. The Convention of Vienna took place on February 4, 1826. The kings of France, United Kingdom, Ottoman Empire, German Confederation, Prussia, Italian States and their ministers were invited to the meeting. The Russian counter-revolutionary envoy led by 27 year old Grand Duke Michael Pavlovich. And they all agreed to form a force to deal with the Russian revolutionaries. The plan was for operations to begin after the Russian winter. The Alliance called the Continental Army. Operations would begin in April after Easter. It called for a force of 750,000 men. Prussia and Austria would provide the bulk of the men. Charles X was eager for this adventure but his advisers were warning him that he had a war in the Caribbean with the Haitian Nut that was hard to crack. Charles feared the Russian revolution because it had the potential of spreading across Europe. France already sent 45,000 men initially and was sending 65,000 more men. 91,500 men were already leaving France and now France committed a force of 97,500 men for a war with Russia. The military was being overstretched.

Convention of Vienna

Concert of Europe.

Revolutionary Response: News of the convention of Vienna reached St. Petersburg and all of Europe declared war against Russia. With revolts in Poland and the periphery of the ottoman Empire, it was time for to prepare for the European invasion. The revolutionaries called for a levee en mass of every able-bodied male 18-28. The Republican Army which it was now called grew large. Pre-Revolution Russia had a standing army of 750,000. But the levee en masse raised it to 1.4 million men. Fortifications were being built. Pestel suggested to the council that instead of crushing the Polish they would support it. And ultimately use the free Polish republic stoke Polish uprising in the Prussian and Austrian Empire. That would plunge those empires into chaos. “It is better to have a free loyal ally then a contempt subject who can become an enemy.” This plan was met with disbelief with the Council. Trebotsky who was the dictator agreed with is surprising. However, this would his downfall. Many saw him as a coward who couldn’t come up with an original thought and just reacted to fear. So the Russian Republic reached out with the Polish revolutionaries. The Revolutionary Congress of Poland met with the revolutionary council in Krakow and reached an agreement. Poland would be a free state and would be an ally to Russia. In return, Russia would aid the new Polish Republic to retake lost territory from both Prussia and Austria. The lines were drawn and this new war in Europe would turn another bloody page in the continent. Both sides were getting ready for the eventual confrontation in the spring of 1826.

Pestel meetings with Polish rebels in Krakow.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

There maybe an update tomorrow. I would like any ideas and suggestions because Russian history isn't really my strong suit but I'm slowly learning every day. This upcoming war is going to change the face of Europe.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

How is the Haitians' ammunition situation by this time? I'd imagine that, without any reliable source of materiel, they'd start raiding French supply trains, which could tie up more troops behind the lines.

Remember Gran Colombia with the aid of the UK is sending arms to Haiti through places like Jacmel,Ile la Vache,the Spanish East. Also like the first war they will raid French supply trains,take weapons from deal French soldiers killed in ambushes or battle. Dessalines and Christophe made sure the island was well stocked with arms after 1804. So they getting ammo from various sources. The UK and Gran Colombia will indirectly send gunpowder *wink wink* to Haiti.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

Not having the debt will be a major benefit - but on the other hand, this Haiti will have suffered yet another destructive, scorched-earth war. Also, I suspect that Charles X will lose the war with bad grace and that there will be no formal peace treaty or recognition of Haitian independence, so Haiti will remain in an international legal limbo some time longer than OTL. What might really make the difference is a better-regulated domestic economy and access to Latin American markets.

That is the thing. Even though there will be indemnity payment Haiti will still be in economic bad shape because of another scorched earth war. So it will be a difficult but manageable post war years for Guerrier. If he can restart Haiti's agriculture wealth the economy can recover and the reconstruction process will be smooth with a few bumps along the way.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

If I remember correctly, though, French non-recognition did harm Haiti in the early 19th century because potential trading partners were afraid that they would anger France if they traded with Haiti. Also, Spain pretty clearly recognized a fait accompli in South America after 1825 even though it took decades more to ratify, while it wasn't as clear that France had given up on Haiti. Add that to the common European feeling that Haiti, as a black state, wasn't a "real" country in the way the criollo republics were, and there might be a continuing reluctance to establish political and trade relationships.

Yup also the US put an embargo on Haiti for fear of a slave insurrection on its own soil. That is why having Gran Colombia allied with Haiti in a "anti-European colonialist" alliance can alleviate things. Latin American nations will see this war as proof that the European monarchies still haven't given up the idea or reconquering lost colonies. Gran Colombia will see if Haiti fails then they are next on the chopping block. So Haiti could thrive with no official recognition as long they can trade with Gran Colombia and the UK inditectly.

 

[Deleted member 14881]

Yup also the US put an embargo on Haiti for fear of a slave insurrection on its own soil. That is why having Gran Colombia allied with Haiti in a "anti-European colonialist" alliance can alleviate things. Latin American nations will see this war as proof that the European monarchies still haven't given up the idea or reconquering lost colonies. Gran Colombia will see if Haiti fails then they are next on the chopping block. So Haiti could thrive with no official recognition as long they can trade with Gran Colombia and the UK inditectly.

I mean if you were a southern planter, Haiti would be your worst nightmare. Southern politicians talked about abolitionists wanting to turn the South into a giant Haiti.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

I mean if you were a southern planter, Haiti would be your worst nightmare. Southern politicians talked about abolitionists wanting to turn the South into a giant Haiti.

Pretty much. We will see things heat up once the ACW starts. But that is a later update down the line.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Silly question: Wouldn't Haiti serve as an alternative to Liberia for the American Colonization Society to consider as the place to resettle emancipated black slaves? There is no risk of attack by the indigenous peoples and Haiti is more of a friendlier places (in terms of securing food, protection from diseases, etc.) than Liberia. Plus it'd be interesting to add an Anglophone element to the bilingual (Haitian Creole-Spanish) society forming in TTL Haiti.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

Silly question: Wouldn't Haiti serve as an alternative to Liberia for the American Colonization Society to consider as the place to resettle emancipated black slaves? There is no risk of attack by the indigenous peoples and Haiti is more of a friendlier places (in terms of securing food, protection from diseases, etc.) than Liberia. Plus it'd be interesting to add an Anglophone element to the bilingual (Haitian Creole-Spanish) society forming in TTL Haiti.

It could but events in the US will change things. All I will say that emancipated black slaves will get their own country in the Americas. And it wont be only be emancipated black slaves from the Southern United States.

 

[Jonathan Edelstein]

It could but events in the US will change things. All I will say that emancipated black slaves will get their own country in the Americas. And it wont be only be emancipated black slaves from the Southern United States.

I assume, then, that Haiti's relative prosperity and stability will make its recruitment efforts more successful than OTL. OTOH, I'd still anticipate that most freed slaves will stay where they are - unless the push factors are overwhelming, the majority will always consider staying put to be the path of least resistance.

Anyway, I expect that an ultra-royalist like Charles X will see the Decembrist revolution as a very personal threat - he'll see the execution of the Tsar's family as a repetition of the French Revolution. His fellow European monarchs will want him to pull troops from Haiti and make a full commitment to fight Russia, and his inclinations will lead him the same way - Haiti is an embarrassment to France but Decembrist Russia is a menace. At a guess, he'll try to carry on the fight in Haiti at first with a smaller number of troops, but eventually he'll realize he's lost, especially if the anti-Russian coalition suffers some defeats and the situation in Europe becomes an emergency. The question is whether he'll figure this out before his own regime goes down in flames.

Also, there will be no Russian Central Asia ITTL, though I suspect that's very far down the list of things you care about.

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

I assume, then, that Haiti's relative prosperity and stability will make its recruitment efforts more successful than OTL. OTOH, I'd still anticipate that most freed slaves will stay where they are - unless the push factors are overwhelming, the majority will always consider staying put to be the path of least resistance.

Anyway, I expect that an ultra-royalist like Charles X will see the Decembrist revolution as a very personal threat - he'll see the execution of the Tsar's family as a repetition of the French Revolution. His fellow European monarchs will want him to pull troops from Haiti and make a full commitment to fight Russia, and his inclinations will lead him the same way - Haiti is an embarrassment to France but Decembrist Russia is a menace. At a guess, he'll try to carry on the fight in Haiti at first with a smaller number of troops, but eventually he'll realize he's lost, especially if the anti-Russian coalition suffers some defeats and the situation in Europe becomes an emergency. The question is whether he'll figure this out before his own regime goes down in flames.

Also, there will be no Russian Central Asia ITTL, though I suspect that's very far down the list of things you care about.

1. Well in OTL it didn't go well because of the economic deplorable state Haiti was in. Also the instability. There maybe some migration of freemen to Haiti but it will kinda limited because Haiti isn't going to be a free democracy and also language barriers. Events in the US is going to change things. There will be an overwhelming push factor. That is all I will say on that.

2. This is essentially CharlesX's mindset. He will see the Russian menace as a graver threat to France. However, he is still committed on the war effort in Haiti. Calls for reinforcements by Perrin will go unanswered and when he does get them it will be too little. The thing is fighting two wars at the same time is going to be expensive. Let us not forget the original reason why Charles wanted indemnity payments. The French treasury was dry after decades of war from the French revolutionary war and the Napoleonic wars. This time it will aggravate France economically. France is going to be in a tough bind. And the French expeditionary force in Haiti is going to suffer big time with all the attention on Russia.

3. Hmm what you mean Central Asia? I thought Russia had solid control of it at the time? I am not really an expertise in Russian or Eastern European history so I need all the help I can get. I do though have big plans for the Caucaus regions. Let us just say Russia reaches out to another major power in the region to join forces to take an old common foe.

 

[funnyhat]

Silly question: Wouldn't Haiti serve as an alternative to Liberia for the American Colonization Society to consider as the place to resettle emancipated black slaves? There is no risk of attack by the indigenous peoples and Haiti is more of a friendlier places (in terms of securing food, protection from diseases, etc.) than Liberia. Plus it'd be interesting to add an Anglophone element to the bilingual (Haitian Creole-Spanish) society forming in TTL Haiti.

Haiti is fairly crowded though (at least the western half). Can it absorb a large volume of immigrants?

Also, did I miss it or is French not also still an official language TTL?

 

[Marcus Licinius Crassus]

Haiti is fairly crowded though (at least the western half). Can it absorb a large volume of immigrants?

Also, did I miss it or is French not also still an official language TTL?

It is a small island. Haiti has had immigrants for example there is Arabs Haitians. My mother's cousin married a Haitian arab. French and Kreyol is the official language of Haiti. In this TL it is French,Spanish and Kreyol that is the official language.

 

[Deleted member 67076]

Haiti is fairly crowded though (at least the western half). Can it absorb a large volume of immigrants?

Yes, pretty easily. [Insert Morbid Joke about how all the deaths will create more available real estate]

That aside aside Haiti has had periods of immigration (nowhere near to the extent the Dominican Republic has). Most of them got along pretty fun, although its probably worth noting most of these migrants were largely urban and filled important niches, such as artisans and other middle class jobs. There also really shouldn't be that much of an issue for space. The East however has vast amounts of empty land to give out and cities eager to accept more migrants, and the west has a bunch of highlands that are sparsely populated.

Would do well for the entire country to accept plenty of migrants from all over. There's a lot of benefits from this, for example many of the Germans who came over to DR ended up introducing new plows and seed drills to the general population, and the Indians and Arabs in the Caribbean became a readily integrated middle class that brought over new crops to everyone's benefit.

Silly question: Wouldn't Haiti serve as an alternative to Liberia for the American Colonization Society to consider as the place to resettle emancipated black slaves? There is no risk of attack by the indigenous peoples and Haiti is more of a friendlier places (in terms of securing food, protection from diseases, etc.) than Liberia. Plus it'd be interesting to add an Anglophone element to the bilingual (Haitian Creole-Spanish) society forming in TTL Haiti.

Actually, the candidate for this would likely be Gran Colombia of all places. Bolivar knew his coastal hinterlands in Colombia proper were pretty depopulated, and he got the idea to invite Freedmen from America to settle the coasts. But when the federation broke apart, there was no money or time to try to pull this off.

 

[123456789blaaa]

@Jonathan Edelstein "Recruitment Efforts"? Did Haiti try to attract free slaves in OTL?