Greek victory during the greco-turkish war, changes to Constantinople.

[Atomicbarracuda]

Let's assume that the greeks won the greco-turkish war and that they managed to make a deal with the allies in order to take Constantinople, what changes would they have made to the city?

For example, Hagia Sophia, would they have restored it to a church or would they have turn it into a museum like today? What about the minarets, would they have demolished them?

And what about turkish structures like the Blue Mosque or the Topkapı Palace?

Lastly the Theodosian walls, would these be restored or kept in disrepair?

 

[Seshat]

There would have been a whole lot of genocide.

Hagia Sofia would have definitely been restored, for better or for worse.

 

[Zelda]

Destroying the Blue Mosque would have been as bad as destroying Hagia Sofia, they'd tear off the minarets and make it into a church.

 

[Halagaz]

Hagia Sophia would be turned (back) into a Church, without any major demolitions probably. The Blue Mosque will probably be preserved, and the same for other major Ottoman structures - it's the less high-profile ones that may suffer considerable damage. I don't think the Theodosian Walls would be restored, but it's an interesting idea.

Some level of anti-Turkish violence is probably unavoidable in this scenario, but there's no reason to assume it would reach genocidal proportions.

 

[algaz]

I'm not sure a Greek Constantinople requires a greek victory, only for Venizelos to stay in power long enough to realize that Greece alone can't defeat Turkey alone. If he goes to the negotiating table before the Entente pulls the plug with the Greek army still in the field and combat-capable he is a good enough negotiator that he could secure Constantinople in exchange for the Smyrna zone(no land border between Greece and Turkey) which I think Kemal might be more open to discussing at this point. If this is the case Venizelos(the only Greek politician who can lead to a Greek Constantinople in my opinion) is too image-conscious and shrewd to allow large scale violence and destruction though some would be unavoidable unless there was a major OTL-like population exchange. A lot of ottoman buildings would be modified and repurposed, abandoned due to lack of interest, or suffer "tragic accidents"(I don't think the Blue Mosque or other famous structures would be among them) and making the Haghia Sophia a church again would be a 500-year-old dream, so 101% certain. I doubt that anyone would really consider restoring the Theodosian walls. Also Constantinople would be the new Greek capital(another 500-year-old dream) at least officially.

 

[Livius wannabe]

There would have been a whole lot of genocide.

What about mere population transfer like in OTL 1922 (albeit in reverse)?

 

[Riain]

I think the Greeks would turn HS back into a church, they were in a much different position to Attaturk who changed it from Mosque to (Islamic) museum so won't be magnanimous in victory.

 

[Archduke]

What about mere population transfer like in OTL 1922 (albeit in reverse)?

In OTL Turks got transferred out of Greece too, it was a mutual exchange.

 

[Seshat]

What about mere population transfer like in OTL 1922 (albeit in reverse)?

Considering a lot of the territory the Greeks would likely be taking in this scenario, there would be much more ill-will and tbh, actual ethnic cleansing.

 

[thekingsguard]

If we go for a clean split - Greece gets Thrace while Turkey gets Smyrna and Asia Minor - I could see it, along with the OTL population exchanges.

Greece would absolutely make Constantinople the capital - not sure if they'd restore the Byzantine Empire in the process too, but they'd be busy restoring the Greekness of the city for sure.

Hagia Sophia would be a church. I don't think they'd tear down the Blue Mosque or anything, but there would be some restoration efforts certainly.

 

[Gukpard]

Greece would absolutely make Constantinople the capital - not sure if they'd restore the Byzantine Empire in the process too

This reminds me of on of the classical quotes of this forum:

Greece will go from non-existent in 1800 to becoming the Byzantine Empire by 1900, and the Byzantine Empire will of course be one of the Great Powers of Europe. It will also not be called be Greece, but literally called the Byzantine Empire and style itself as the successor to the original Byzantium, and Europe will treat this as a normal course of affairs.

Well, in this case according to the thread Greece could rename itself to something like "Rhomanion" or "Rhomania" (the land of Romans), but it wouldn't cause so much change as the foreigners still would call it as Greece, it is like today that we call Greece as Greece but the country name is Hellas

 

[SlideAway]

I'm not sure a Greek Constantinople requires a greek victory, only for Venizelos to stay in power long enough to realize that Greece alone can't defeat Turkey alone. If he goes to the negotiating table before the Entente pulls the plug with the Greek army still in the field and combat-capable he is a good enough negotiator that he could secure Constantinople in exchange for the Smyrna zone(no land border between Greece and Turkey) which I think Kemal might be more open to discussing at this point. If this is the case Venizelos(the only Greek politician who can lead to a Greek Constantinople in my opinion) is too image-conscious and shrewd to allow large scale violence and destruction though some would be unavoidable unless there was a major OTL-like population exchange. A lot of ottoman buildings would be modified and repurposed, abandoned due to lack of interest, or suffer "tragic accidents"(I don't think the Blue Mosque or other famous structures would be among them) and making the Haghia Sophia a church again would be a 500-year-old dream, so 101% certain. I doubt that anyone would really consider restoring the Theodosian walls. Also Constantinople would be the new Greek capital(another 500-year-old dream) at least officially.

Would this Greek Constantinople only consist of the Thracian side? Would Turkey retain the Anatolian side? Would that side be called Istanbul or something else?

 

[algaz]

With Constantinople as the largest city, cultural center of the country and capital(not necessarily seat of government, though), Byzantine heritage would become a much more important part of Greek culture. Most likely, it would eclipse ancient Greece. Nonetheless, changing the name to Rhomania/Roman Kingdom/Empire seems near-impossible to me in any scenario without a pre-1800 POD(at the latest).

Would this Greek Constantinople only consist of the Thracian side? Would Turkey retain the Anatolian side? Would that side be called Istanbul or something else?

That's the idea. Greece in Europe, Turkey in Asia, ideally a population exchange. Presumably the Asian part would be named Istanbul, though I'm no expert and I'm really curious about how the major Turkish cities develop in this scenario. Greek Constantinople will probably have a larger population than OTL Athens(which will have at most half its current size)and be the center of economic activity, though a seat of government almost within shelling distance of the Turkish Army and the Soviet Black Sea fleet seems too short-sighted even for Greek politicians(I'm assuming no major butterflies for WW2, post-WW2 and Soviet leadership, which I could be wrong about)

 

[Eee_Franceau]

Interesting topic! I am most curious about later developments wrt the EU, NATO, and labour migration.
Would there be as much discussion as in the OTL whether Turkey is European? Would Turkey be invited to join similar treaties that it is in today? Would Turkey be in a position that it could boast Ottoman-style rhetoric as it does today?
A part of me believes Turkey's European bit has made all the difference, a part of me does not.
The Greco-Turkish war seems the easiest POD for this line of thought, but older wars between Europe/Greece and Turkey could also be starting points. (Or maybe this question belongs in a separate discussion?)

 

[trajen777]

I think a logical break point would be the Bosphorus and Dardanelles Strait cut off. However the hostility that would exist in the future would need to have a certain land on the Anatolia side controlled by the Greeks otherwise you will end up with the possibility of Artillery strikes, and shut down of the straights. I think you need for victory you would need some of the following to happen :
1. Venizelos stays in power where by the Allies don't cut support ie: "Noting the King's neutrality during World War I, the Allies warned the Greek government that if he should be returned to the throne they would cut off all financial and military aid to Greece". So eliminate his fall (or he does not do a plebiscite). The results of the pleb. end up with "A month later a plebiscite called for the return of King Constantine. Soon after his return, the King replaced many of the World War I veteran officers and appointed inexperienced monarchist officers to senior positions. The leadership of the campaign was given to Anastasios Papoulas, while King Constantine himself assumed nominally the overall command. In addition, many of the remaining Venizelist officers resigned, appalled by the regime change. The Greek Army which had secured Smyrna and the Asia Minor coast was purged of Venizelos's supporters while it marched on Ankara."

2. Have the experiences leaders do the follow up at the Battle of Afyonkarahisar-Eskişehir (July 1921)
Between 27 June and 20 July 1921, a reinforced Greek army of nine divisions launched a major offensive, the greatest thus far, against the Turkish troops commanded by Ismet Inönü on the line of Afyonkarahisar-Kütahya-Eskişehir. The plan of the Greeks was to cut Anatolia in two, as the above towns were on the main rail-lines connecting the hinterland with the coast. Eventually, after breaking the stiff Turkish defences, they occupied these strategically important centres. Instead of pursuing and decisively crippling the nationalists' military capacity, the Greek Army halted. In consequence, and despite their defeat, the Turks managed to avoid encirclement and made a strategic retreat on the east of the Sakarya River, where they organised their last line of defense.

3. Work out a treaty with Russia to not supply gold and munitions.

4. Support Armenians with supplies to keep the Turks busy in the east.

If you have these completed you could end up with a map such as this