Greek Orthodoxy in Italy

How long did it take for the Orthodox church to wither and die in Italy, in particular Norman Italy following its conquest of former Roman territories in the south. I was just wondering this, and, to make it a bit AH.related, how could we see a flourishing Orthodox community surviving in Apulia and Calabria to this day, making up 15-20% of the population, rather there simply being one or two Greek speaking villages dotted about.
 
How long did it take for the Orthodox church to wither and die in Italy, in particular Norman Italy following its conquest of former Roman territories in the south. I was just wondering this, and, to make it a bit AH.related, how could we see a flourishing Orthodox community surviving in Apulia and Calabria to this day, making up 15-20% of the population, rather there simply being one or two Greek speaking villages dotted about.

Long term Byzantine control of Italy or even part of it, would probably do the trick.
 
A POD for this could be the early death of Robert Guiscard. That would delay or even eventually bring an end to the Norman Conquest of southern Italy. Maybe at that point the Byzantines could even consolidate their rule there.
 
Of course, maintaining a substantial Roman presence within Italy probably means there is never a break between Greek Orthodox and Catholic, or that if such a break occurs it will be substantially different from OTL. The Papacy would never never split the church and move openly against the Emperor if the Emperor were in a position to actually do something about it.
 
Didn't the Vatican authorize a Greek version of the Roman liturgy? I'm not sure if it was in koine or medieval. I think this version was limited to monasteries while parish priests said the Mass in Latin.

Now that the Tridentine liturgy has been reauthorized, I think it would be cool to revive the Roman liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Glagolithic, etc. But I think Rome will not go that far.
 
Didn't the Vatican authorize a Greek version of the Roman liturgy? I'm not sure if it was in koine or medieval. I think this version was limited to monasteries while parish priests said the Mass in Latin.

Now that the Tridentine liturgy has been reauthorized, I think it would be cool to revive the Roman liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Glagolithic, etc. But I think Rome will not go that far.

Actually the Greek version of Roman Mass was limited to the Basilian Monks (aka monks who followed St. Basil's Rule instead of St. Benedict etc.) only and was said only in their monasteries while parishes and other monasteries used the Roman Mass... Basilians were scattered through out Italy with their centre being Grottaferrata Monastery in Rome... South Italy had a substantial number of these monks though... Following the schism Basilian monks chose to follow Papacy ... If they had remained loyal to Eastern Church there is a good chance that south Italy remains mostly Orthodox (this combined with a delay of Norman conquest and firmer grasp of Byzantine Empire over South Italy)... There would be some kind of persecutions i guess but there is a good chance that people in that area would be at least 15%-20% Orthodox...
 
Didn't the Vatican authorize a Greek version of the Roman liturgy? I'm not sure if it was in koine or medieval. I think this version was limited to monasteries while parish priests said the Mass in Latin.

Now that the Tridentine liturgy has been reauthorized, I think it would be cool to revive the Roman liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Glagolithic, etc. But I think Rome will not go that far.
Or the Pope could allow a Greek Catholic rite using essentially the Orthodox service, with a few changes. I've got a friend who's a Ruthenian rite priest...
 
How long did it take for the Orthodox church to wither and die in Italy, in particular Norman Italy following its conquest of former Roman territories in the south. I was just wondering this, and, to make it a bit AH.related, how could we see a flourishing Orthodox community surviving in Apulia and Calabria to this day, making up 15-20% of the population, rather there simply being one or two Greek speaking villages dotted about.

It took about 200 years. If the Byzantines had retained it, at least for a few more centuries, I don't see why it couldn't still be Orthodox.
 
Or the Pope could allow a Greek Catholic rite using essentially the Orthodox service, with a few changes. I've got a friend who's a Ruthenian rite priest...

JP II said the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy at least once, publicly, on the papal altar of St. Peter's. He wore Roman vestments and a mitre rather than a Byzantine vestments and a crown. I don't know if Pope Benedict has celebrated the Divine Liturgy in St. Peter's or elsewhere, but he may never do so given that the Eastern Catholic churches of European background are mostly Slavic in character. I doubt that Pope Benedict is up on his Church Slavonic, but who knows? I am more than certain that Pope Benedict could say the Divine Liturgy in Koine Greek, but there is no Greek analogue in the Eastern Catholic rites. Besides, B XVI saying the Greek Divine Liturgy would infuriate the Greek Church. It's one of those "don't go there" things.
 
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JP II said the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy at least once, publicly, on the papal altar of St. Peter's. He wore Roman vestments and a mitre rather than a Byzantine vestments and a crown. I don't know if Pope Benedict has celebrated the Divine Liturgy in St. Peter's or elsewhere, but he may never do so given that the Eastern Catholic churches of European background are mostly Slavic in character. I doubt that Pope Benedict is up on his Church Slavonic, but who knows? I am more than certain that Pope Benedict could say the Divine Liturgy in Koine Greek, but there is no Greek analogue in the Eastern Catholic rites. Besides, B XVI saying the Greek Divine Liturgy would infuriate the Greek Church. It's one of those "don't go there" things.

Indeed... Orthodox Churches are already pissed off with Byzantine-Catholic rite... If the Pope decides to celebrate the Byzantine-Cathlic rite dressed with Byzantine vestments it would look like an insult to the Orthodox eyes...
Plus it was rumoured that Patriarch Bartholomew was enraged in the funeral of Pope John-Paul II when Byzantine-Catholic priests said funeral prayers dressed with Byzantine vestments....
 
Well, Benedict likes to use at least elements of Greek liturgy.
In his first mass as pope, the gospel recitation and its initiation followed that pattern -
and Benedict took the role of the community/choir rather than the priest.
 
JP II said the Ukrainian Divine Liturgy at least once, publicly, on the papal altar of St. Peter's. He wore Roman vestments and a mitre rather than a Byzantine vestments and a crown. I don't know if Pope Benedict has celebrated the Divine Liturgy in St. Peter's or elsewhere, but he may never do so given that the Eastern Catholic churches of European background are mostly Slavic in character. I doubt that Pope Benedict is up on his Church Slavonic, but who knows? I am more than certain that Pope Benedict could say the Divine Liturgy in Koine Greek, but there is no Greek analogue in the Eastern Catholic rites. Besides, B XVI saying the Greek Divine Liturgy would infuriate the Greek Church. It's one of those "don't go there" things.
Err... There is, indeed, a Greek Uniate church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Byzantine_Catholic_Church
But I agree that it is probably a lot smaller than the other 'Byzantine' rite churches.

It is odd that 'Greek Catholic' was the term widely used, given that there were so few 'Greek Greek Catholics'. When I was growing up, the phrase 'Ukrainian Greek Catholic' was very widely still used to distinguish that half of the Ukrainian community from the Orthodox half.


Also, I THINK that the Ukrainian liturgy has been in the vernacular for a lot longer than the Latin rite liturgy, possibly since its beginning, but I don't know that.
 
Also, I THINK that the Ukrainian liturgy has been in the vernacular for a lot longer than the Latin rite liturgy, possibly since its beginning, but I don't know that.

I don't know about the vernacular per se, but almost all eastern (slavic) Churches have had Church Slavonic as their liturgical language from day one.
 
Err... There is, indeed, a Greek Uniate church
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Byzantine_Catholic_Church
But I agree that it is probably a lot smaller than the other 'Byzantine' rite churches.

It is odd that 'Greek Catholic' was the term widely used, given that there were so few 'Greek Greek Catholics'. When I was growing up, the phrase 'Ukrainian Greek Catholic' was very widely still used to distinguish that half of the Ukrainian community from the Orthodox half.


Also, I THINK that the Ukrainian liturgy has been in the vernacular for a lot longer than the Latin rite liturgy, possibly since its beginning, but I don't know that.

The Ukrainians switched to the vernacular well before the Romans did. I think some Ruthenians still use some Church Slavonic. I'm surprised that the Byzantine Catholics haven't gotten back into Church Slavonic now that Latin is "in" again with the Roman Catholics.

Indeed... Orthodox Churches are already pissed off with Byzantine-Catholic rite... If the Pope decides to celebrate the Byzantine-Cathlic rite dressed with Byzantine vestments it would look like an insult to the Orthodox eyes...
Plus it was rumoured that Patriarch Bartholomew was enraged in the funeral of Pope John-Paul II when Byzantine-Catholic priests said funeral prayers dressed with Byzantine vestments....

I don't get the "insult" in Eastern Catholic clergy assisting at a Papal Mass in Byzantine vestments. But I agree that for diplomatic purposes the Pope shouldn't dress like an Eastern patriarch -- at least not in public. Still, Pope Benedict is the bishop of an ancient see recognized by both East and West, and part of that patrimony is intertwined with the Eastern liturgical traditions.

Weren't some Latins under the care of the Ecumenical Patriarch for some time? Did Eastern priests in Byzantium say the Roman liturgy in Latin? I'm not talking about Crusader sacks and destruction of churches (unjust), but priests freely celebrating the medieval Roman liturgy?
 
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